A Conversation with Wilmington University Lacrosse Coach – Christian Zwickert

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of In the Crease, Coast to Coast discussion of D2 Men's LaCrosse. I'm your co-host, Kevin Stenstrom, and with me as always, passionate, passionate D2 Lacrosse fan and dad, Danny Moran. How are you doing, Danny?

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I'm doing great, Kevin, tonight. I'm having a really good night. How about you? How are you doing tonight?

SPEAKER_01 0:35

That couldn't be better. You know, when you get to sit you and I with a coach and talk D2 lacrosse and their program, because we learn so much in the in these in these sessions.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're we have had five or six coaches on now. And um again, what started out as a whim and as a joke has turned into this podcast that's that's kind of starting to reach people a little bit, maybe even a little bit more than you and I even uh thought that it would do. And and and we're flattered that we are getting top division two college coaches to come on and talk across, talk at their conference, talk about their programs, talk about their culture. It's been really interesting to me. I mean, I'm I'm a dad. I've I've had three boys, coach. Um, my older two played division two, my third is committed to playing in division two. So I've been around the rodeo a couple of times, I've been around the block a couple of times. But during this, doing the podcast with Kevin, learning a lot about programs and coaches and just different things, and it's been real interesting. And Kevin, we have another interesting coach tonight with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Yeah, we we certainly do. And and uh and let's just get into it right now. If it when I look back and I looked at his team's record from last year, you know, if you look at it, you may say, that's not too impressive. But I watched several of their games last year, and their record, you know, their record uh does not tell the truth of how this team plays. They play tough and they play gritty and they will challenge any team. And if you look at this coach who actually started this program and where it was when he's when he started from ground zero to where it is now, you can see where it's going. So um without further ado, let's just welcome in the coach of Wilmington University, Christian Zwickard. How are you doing, coach? Hey guys, thanks for having me. This is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Thanks for coming on, coach. We really oh I'm sorry, Kevin. Thanks for coming on tonight with us, Coach. We really appreciate you uh taking the time. I know school's in session, the teams are back, kids are back, practices have started. Um, we appreciate you uh taking a couple of minutes and chatting with us tonight. Appreciate it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yep, thanks for the invite, guys. So so it's funny, coach, when I we started reaching out to to uh different coaches, I didn't really connect with all the bios yet. I knew a little bit of some of them, and and um obviously I read them before I sent it out, but we've had several other coaches that have actually started their programs from scratch as well. You know, Coach Jorgensen from St. Leo way back around 2005. Just talked to Coach Mitchell of Anderson University, who just started his. Um, and you started years too. Now they both started at different times. You started yours about four or five years ago, I think.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

This will be our fifth fall.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Full fifth full season. Yes, but you also started it in a different geographic area, right? Where so I'm really interested, just to start off the discussion, of what it was like for you to build that program from the ground up, especially kind of nestled in in where you are between you know New York and Maryland. And you know, did that help your program get going? Or I'm just really curious of how that got going for you guys.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

You know, it was a pretty interesting story. Um, my um, when I was um actually talked with um the former AD, his name was Frank Alio, Frank was uh was actually my fourth grade math teacher. Uh his wow. You know, we we were at each other's weddings, we've known each other since first grade. So, you know, Coach A is basically, you know, like a like a surrogate father to me. You know, I've I've grown up with him since the time that I was five years old and being almost 50 now. And and uh when he I was coaching at Wesley College back in 2004 to 2008. And during that time frame, he reached out to me about uh questions about starting men's and women's across. And and um, you know, he said, well, whenever we start men's across, I'll be giving you a call. And unfortunately, he he had retired, which is great for him and his family. Um, but that just kind of put things on pause, and I I just figured that it's not gonna happen. And everywhere that I've coached, I either had to move or I had to drive. When I coached at Franklin and Marshall, I drove from Wilmington, which was an hour and a half each way, if I was lucky. Um, and then coaching at Drexel, commuting from from Wilmington was 45 minutes. Um, and then commuting to to Wesley College was another 45-50 minutes. So um it was it was kind of a long road to get here, but I remember him reaching out to me in in August of 2017 and he and he said, Z, do you uh do you want the job still? And I said, What job? Is it going to get posted? Is this happening? He said, Yes, it's going to happen. So after going through the interview process, uh they hired me, and uh I I actually got to work starting in February, and they gave me the task of bringing in 24 guys uh for that upcoming September. So essentially, I had what's that seven months to build a program. Uh and um fortunately, you know, I had some some players that I knew that um were coming out of high school. I actually ran a club program here in in Delaware called the Delaware Silverbacks. And uh when I transitioned out from that, you know, we had guys, uh a good crop of guys that were were going into their junior and senior year. So we ended up getting um the jump start of the program through some local guys, guys that I had coached. Um and then um when the word got out that I got the job, there was guys that um were playing at Cabrini College and Stevenson, and they were like, well, I just want to come back home. So we started the program with 18 guys, but only 14 of those guys were were eligible through transferability rules and eligibility and compliance. So we started the 2018 season with 14 guys, and I actually had more assistant coaches on the sidelines than we had, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

So than substitutions like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

We had uh we had five assistant coaches, and and that was uh roughly four or one more, two more, depending on uh injuries and stuff, what we had.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

You know, we were fortunate to to to get some wins out of that, but yeah, it was uh it was a tough start, you know, to to start a program in seven months. And um, and I'd pushed to try and get it to to postpone and start in 2019, but they had already made the conference, they started with the commitments and building the schedule, so they say good luck. Well, you know, anybody that's available right now, it's gonna come with problems, you know. Anyone not committed in February, um, you know, it's gotta be kind of uh an interesting situation. So it was kind of a land of misfit toys uh that fall, but we were able to coach them up. I I built a great coaching staff. Um Scott Plassi, who'd spent a number number of years, 12 years, I believe, as an O and D guy for Don Gravanti at Mount St. Mary's. Um Ronnie Stana, who's my offensive coordinator, was uh a four-year player at Marymount and coached locally high school. Um Corey Malampe, who was a Widener guy, Ridley Ridley high school product. You know, it's a very strong program there. And um one of my former players at Wesley College, Adam Starrett, who was a decorated Marine and uh police officer, he's actually now a detective for Middletown Police, uh, and Jeremy Forrester, um, who was a disciplinarian and a 13-year head coach at St. Elizabeth's, a local product as well. So a lot of these guys I had known for a number of years, and when they heard that I got the job, my phone was blowing up about jumping in and trying to help. So we had a really good, really good season in 2018 with uh all things considered, we got we got three really talented players out of Ocean County Community College in New Jersey, and a couple transfers, and you throw in a mix of of some high school guys, and and I tell you, it you know, one of the things that I heard from a couple coaches that said, you know, just because they have 14 guys, you got to plan for 60 minutes, and and that's right. We were never not competing in those games. So um a credit to those 14 and 18 guys that that helped start that program. They just they didn't stop. And um, you know, with the the conference um starting men's across, there was only six of us. And um the top four teams were gonna make the playoffs, and that that 18 season was our first season, it was the conference playoffs first season, and and we were fortunate to uh to make it in as the four seed uh the very first year, and and we've made it every year since. And each year that we've made it, we've moved up a spot four to three, three to two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So well, it's also interesting, coach, that you when you say that you got you got you got to play your, you know, other coaches said you got to play uh Wilmington for 60 minutes, like that's what I noticed this past year when I watched you last season. I when I watched the games, I'm like, they don't quit. They can be down seven or eight and they don't quit, and they're gonna put two or three back on the on the scoreboard and make it a game. You know, you may not win at the end, and that's I I I I ask that to me is what you're that's your culture right there, right? That's part of your culture of not quitting.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Right. You you know, it's you know, you could throw out the the military, you you fight the guys to your left and your right. And you know, when when you're in that 2018 season, uh I don't think I've ever given more days off towards season. Um we would have to give guys sometimes two days off in season. If we played on Wednesday, we're doing nothing on on Thursday. We're doing a walkthrough um to keep our legs fresh so that we can go out and compete on a Saturday. And then we would come off Monday and uh or Sunday and Monday and walk through Tuesday and play on Wednesday. You know, it was kind of rapid fire, but um, you know, the kind of guys that we go, we spend a lot of time uh recruiting these guys. We have guys that, you know, as soon as uh as you know, they're going into their their junior year during the summer, we're we're able to reach out to these guys and talk with them. And we we like to build relationships, you know. Our our our philosophy is quality, not quantity. You know, I could easily bring in, you see a lot of upstart programs bringing in 40 guys inaugural year. And and I think that you know, for us, recruiting the right guys, you know, right, recruiting the guys that are going to work hard, you know, good families, guys that don't have helicopter parents that give them enough rope to go out there and and make some mistakes and and understand adversity, and and we do that, you know, any good coach, regardless if it's a youth coach or a professional coach, uses sports to create adversity for these guys to overcome. So we had a lot to overcome that 2018 year. Um a lot of injuries and fatigue and and just guys that were were just done, you know, but they stuck with it and they kept competing.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

You know, the grittiness um is the type of player, it's it's the area that you guys are recruiting from, too. You know, you're getting them Jersey kids, those Philly kids, those Delaware kids. They're blue-collar kids, you know. You know, and you're gonna get those grittiness with those kids from those areas for sure. You know, yeah. It definitely uh comes from the generations of the blue-collar workers from those areas for sure.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

No doubt. Yeah, so um let's switch a little bit from uh because I was what you answered one of my questions right off the bat, coaches what do you look for in a player? So I loved it. You know, I mean not to answer, ask a question, but I you know, uh I found it really interesting that you've actually coached at the international level, you know, with uh I think I know Poland and I think Germany as well, right? So how does that experience help you in coaching uh your D2 lacrosse program at Wilmington and also being in the CAC? Is there is there any translation there? I'm I'm really curious to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

You know, um I I was very fortunate. I was able to play for the German national team through my father's heritage. And you know, I played in the World Games in '98 in Baltimore. And um when Cabal Maddox stepped away, he was growing his business and and had a lot of um professional type stuff. They offered me the head coaching job. Um in my first year, we beat England twice, we won the European championships, went 6-0, and it was uh it was really surreal. You know, we had some some talented players. We had Dan Umble from Duke, he was an all all all ACC defenseman. We had um Patrick Toybner from Maryland, we had uh our goalkeeper Alec Schultz from Brown. So we we had a lot of guys from D1 and and a few D3 guys, but um, you know, it really helped get involved. I was actually a tryout coach for the United States men's national team when they were uh preparing, I think, for the World Games in '96. Um, and that was a really unique experience. I got to to meet a lot of different coaches and and hear their stories, and and a couple of them actually uh took it upon themselves to mentor me a little bit. But, you know, really, I I mean when it comes to my philosophy and my my kind of priorities is you know, I've always been a teach, not tell. And um we want these guys to ask questions. We want them to really dissect what it is that we're doing. And I never tell anybody what they're going to do. I never say this is what's going to be, and and that's it. You know, I'm kind of like a player's coach, you know, but the thing is development. And I spent a lot of time, you know, with the German national team and and most recently with the Polish national team going over and being renamed the head coach for the Polish national team. A lot of it is development. Yeah. I mean, essentially these guys over in Poland, they're adults, you know, they're they're 18 to 35-year-old men, but they have the desire, they have like they're they're basically youth players, right? Yeah. But uh as adults, and they just soak up everything. They want to learn. You know, if I'm over there for a sixth day, uh, I am working six days. There's no travel, you know. And um, but I love to coach, I love to develop, I love to see where where somebody is when I when I first start coaching them, and then see how they progress um once they kind of matriculate out of out of the program. So, you know, there's a lot of teaching that goes on. Um, we we spent a lot of time dissecting the game, different facets of the game, and and I had good fortune of of coming from various coaching pedigrees. Ricky Sol, who was most recently at Navy, I coached Dartmouth, and and Chris Burdick at Province, and he coached under so many, you know, Kevin Corrigan and Bob Schilling Law and Richie Moran and Greg Canella and um just a long pedigree there. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was I was fortunate, you know, Bill Garrow, who coached everywhere, he was the first head coach at Georgetown and won a national championship at at Anna Rundle, and I coached for him at FM. You know, I I've had the good fortune, and and I took basically what I thought the best were all from all those different programs and and kind of made it my own, but always stuck to the teach not tell mission is development. You know, I want to develop these guys, whether it's mind, body, spirit or on the lacrosse field, and and ultimately I want them to become a better version of themselves than when they came for when they leave and those relationships, you know, the relationships starting the recruiting process and building those with uh with the parents, but ultimately these these are lifelong relationships that that that we coaches with these guys. But you know, to to kind of again to get back to your your question, it it's nothing's changed. You know, it's always been whether it's youth, whether it's international, whether it's collegiate, whether it's high school, it's always been about development and uh teaching and not telling these guys uh about the game.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Coach, let me ask you this. Um you have a lot of division one and division three uh pedigree with you and your assistant coaches, but yet you're in division two. Um tell us what you what brought you to division two. What do you what are you getting uh from division two? Like what do you think about the division? Because Kevin and I we say that this division doesn't get them as much love as division one and division three. And and and maybe ten years ago, rightly so. But I feel in the last five or six years, division two has exploded. You're getting division one type players to come down, you know, your Andrew Q's and these types of players. They're good players, coach. They're they're good. And they're not going to Division I and they're not going to Division III. They're coming in division two. And now you're in the middle of Division II. What do you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

You know, it it's interesting. When when when you're in your division, at least that's how I've always operated. When I'm in my division, uh there could not be any other divisions. You know, so when I was a division one coach, people were asking me if what I thought about something happening in division three or division two. And I said, honestly, I don't watch it. I don't, you know, I'm I'm working you know, in the office as an assistant coach working for these division one guys. I mean, you know, my goal was to make sure that Ricky Sowell came in after me. And um, when when he left, he left before me, you know, and um, and I learned a lot uh about office management from him. But, you know, honestly, when I'm in a division, when I was in division three, I couldn't couldn't care less about what was happening in division one or division two. You just get so kind of tunnel visioned in in your division, and really that's all that matters. You know, it matters what happens in your conference, it happens what happens, it matters what happens regionally, in region, and and through the landscape of your division. Um, and I'll be the first one to say when I when I was coaching division one and then started coaching division three, um, you know, it was the division two was the redheaded stepchild. You know, it was they were present, you just kind of gave them some mild neglect, and you know, and I'll be the first one.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

That's a good way to put it, coach.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

You know, there they are, and that's great. Glad they're playing and having some fun. And but uh I knew nothing about division two. You know, you heard about the perennial powerhouses, Mercy Hurst and Limestone, and right back in the day, CW Post and Adelphi and Lemoyne, but they moved to me, and uh and now I'm one of those guys. And and when I was recruiting, you know, uh for whatever reason I never cross-recruited uh against division two guys, you know. I recruited against um, you know, if we were recruiting against division one guys and top-tier division three, then we were doing the right thing. And right, if we could have conversations with those type of guys, and but now when you you look at the whole landscape of lacrosse and the the parity and it just the sheer numbers, like I don't have to worry about cross-recruiting against a national champion or a division one. You know, we just stick to our recruiting and we get after the guys that we want. And if we lose a guy to uh Robert Morris or a Villanova, I'm okay with that. You know, I'm not with losing to another Division II school, uh especially a Division II school that perceptionally and rankings are better than us. Like I I am going to recruit top tier division one type players, and every now and then you get one. And you have a couple of them together, then it's then it's great. But for me, uh you Know it I could not be any more happier. Uh you know, if I were to sit here and spill out my numbers of budgets and and my budget lines, you know, I coach at Drexel, I coach at Dartmouth, I coach at Providence College. I'll tell you guys, my my budget at Wilmington University, a small D2 school in Delaware, my budget rivals the budgets that we had at those Division I schools. And I would probably be okay with saying that my budget and the support that the university gives us is from a financial standpoint and from a professional development and the support to our student athletes, it rivals Dartmouth, Drexel, and Providence, and if not better, better budget. So, you know, that helps, you know, because we are able to, we're fully funded. We have full staff, we have full budgets, we have full reins to give guys at the Division II level at Wilmington, and we're only four years old, the same type of stuff that D1 guys are are given, you know, and and we send pictures to our recruits uh of you know Christmas in September, and they're blown away with with what we're able to give. So, you know, when you look at division one versus two and and two versus three and three versus one, I mean, obviously division one and division two are kind of in their own, you know, level, so to speak. Lots of similarities. There's some obviously compliance differences here and there, but for the most part, there I don't see much difference, you know, and and where the game has gone, like you said 10 years ago, to where division two is, and it's ever growing. It's growing obviously faster than division one. It's maybe not on the same pace as division three, but it's growing. I mean, there's some legitimate teams out there, and I think now there's a great deal of um media, you know. I think social media and and and showing what some of these division two guys are doing, even even some brand new programs. I mean, you you can go anywhere in a country and find talent. It's just, you know, what you have to offer fits with what it is that they're looking for out of their four years. But I I think it's fantastic, and I think it's only gonna get better. Um, I think that the next step would be automatic qualifiers. If we can get automatic qualifiers in division two, uh that's gonna be a tremendous game changer. I really do.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I I agree with that. I think it's I think it's gonna come soon. I think it will. I'm sure that the committees have discussed it already. I mean, we have so many more teams now at Division II. Conferences are growing every year. Every year the conferences are adding squads and and and schools are are transferring from D3 to D2 and and and and that type of thing. And I I think it's gonna come in the next three to four years. Yeah, I agree with you, I do, I really do. And like you said, that will be a big time game changer in Division II. And and just from my my oldest went to St. Leo, and that was in 2009, 2010. So I've been around Division II for 11, you know, 11, 12 years now. And I I've seen it grow so much, I've seen it change, I've seen the conferences morph and go in this way and going that way, and these and it's just growing and growing and growing. And even that, I'm from Long Island, as you can probably tell from my and I would have never guessed. I'm actually from Rockaway Beach, but living on Long Island now. But we see a lot of good lacrosse. I mean, these kids are fifth and sixth grade and just really good players at such a young level. And they're going to high school, they're becoming all Americans, and they're going deep too. They're going D2. You know, they're saying, hey, I don't I don't want to go to UNAS and sit for a year. Sure. You know, I I don't want to go to, you know, wherever and perhaps sit a year, maybe two. You know, I can go to a Division II school, not so far from home, get in a nice little scholarship and play. And I think that and and I think that's what's what's changing about Division II. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Oh, I agree. Uh I agree. I mean, you you're fortunate because you've seen kind of the process, you've seen the mild neglect that Division II has had, and and now it's it's becoming a national sport, Division II. Um, you you got teams out in Colorado that are playing it, and Utah and um and everywhere in between. You know, I don't think um, I'm not sure if Notre Dame Denamour is still playing Division II lacrosse in California, but yeah, again, it you know, there's so many, so much more, I think, opportunities. And with the growth, um, I think for some of these guys that that want to go and be an impact player, they can be a part of building something. We're starting the foundation of programs. You know, there's you know, when when we started the program and guys are like, I'm the first person to ever wear this number, or I'm the first person to get a ground ball or to make a save or to help get the win. So there's a lot of exciting things out there. Um, you know, some guys are going to be driven to go to Division I, and no matter what you try and talk sense into them, you know, that there's there's more opportunities, I think, in division division three and division two. Now, obviously, you're you're creating a different animal with regards to a recruiting process, you know, division one type athlete versus you know what truly is a division two type athlete. Well, I I I think it's the same type of athletes that that we recruit against. I mean, we're we're talking to guys that that are being chirped at by division one guys, you know, and absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

No, there's no doubt. I I met uh an assistant from Denver a couple of years ago at the 3D blue chip camp down in Orlando, and he's he was explaining, you know, like coast to coast D1, there's like 50 kids they consider blue chip, uh like 50. And then everybody else is in that second tier, and it's open, it's open season for those kids, man. You know, the and and there's a lot to choose from, and and again, more and more each year there's they're they're choosing D2.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Oh yeah, no doubt. I mean, we have we have a guy that is from California, 6'6 uh midfielder. Um when I say he's the same size as Miles Jones, he's the same size. Lefty, righty came in with 18 college credits out of high school because of honors and APs. I mean, this guy, he's on the CIA um and the FBI higher watch list. He turned down to come and play for us, you know. And that's awesome. From you know, he played against Ian Book, his high school played against Ian Book, you know, so he was a tight end. He was a wide receiver, and they wanted to put on 30 pounds and make him a tight end. He was like, nah, I'm gonna play with Ross instead.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah. Smart move.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Smart move. And I'm a football guy, too. There's so many athletes out there, uh, and and some of these athletes are coming from maybe some lesser-known programs or club programs or or areas of the state or areas of the country, but athletes are athletes, and it's my job to make you a better lacrosse player. I can't make you a better athlete, you know, so to speak. But you know, we recruit athletes, guys that are good students, guys that have good family dynamics and good family support. And, you know, there's so many of them out there. You just you you you really gotta beat the bushes, and with the advent of COVID, you know, it changed a lot of recruiting philosophies, you know, and and um, you know, I think the recruiting has changed a little bit. Hopefully it gets back to a little bit of normalcy, but it's not bad sitting here watching live stream club games and uh and getting all the the feeds and the links and and be able to watch from the comfort of your home. But there's there's something to be said by watching a lacrosse game or any sport live. You get of athleticism, you get a sense of speed, you can't get that from watching film. And and anybody that goes and watches NFL on TV and then goes it to the game, you're like, wow, these guys are really fast. And you just can't tell because everybody's so fast, and everybody's so athletic at that level, you can't really get a sense of really how fast it is.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

So that's so funny. From what you talked about. One, uh, the live streaming that you get to watch for games for recruiting. I, you know, my progression is not obviously not as long as Danny's. I've got one son that plays a sport and he's a senior now in a D2 school. And so my progression in watching D2 was seeing him by watch the games of the schools that were recruiting him, then watch the school he was in, then watch the other games within that conference, and then start to branch out. And the beauty of that, especially when you hit uh really in last year for the most part, when you were in in still in COVID and you couldn't go to, you can only go to, we could only go to home games, we couldn't go to other games. Right, you start to get in that where you start to do look at all the live stream. Every game has a link that you can watch. Any team in D2, they're gonna have it. And I think that really helps spread the game too.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Oh, no doubt. You know, getting back to that point I made earlier about social media, you know, being able to at the comfort of your home, you you can just, you know, see the matchups, you know, look at calendars of your favorite teams and and just circle them and and watch them live stream. And with us, you know, going back in the day where we had different tape machines and VHS sitting there for two hours to wait for copies to be made and getting in your car. And drive. I remember we we we played, I think, Cornell uh at Dartmouth, and I literally had to go sit for two hours while it taped, then I had to copy it, and then I had to drive it to Andy Shea, who was the assistant coach at UMass. You know, so um, you know, it's those days are long gone. You know, with the exchange, uh, I can literally watch any Division I and any Division II game from my computer. And it's you know, it's not the the ESPN or the the ESPN U kind of um you know high quality, but you know, I can watch Notre Dame play Air Force, you know, and it's it's it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

It's it's great.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

So let me make another connection from those things you said. One is uh, you know, and I didn't know this. I know your when your team started, I know the conference started at the same time, McKenna. And and then, you know, your your school saying, get 24, we've already started the schedule, go. Yeah, you know, and then I almost equate and point and point to and connect the fact of what you said about how they have supported you from a budget standpoint, right? To me, that all shows commitment. We're all in. We are all in on the Kenneck, we're all in on the sport, the whole conference seems to be that way. When you look at the competition you've got in the Kenneck, that it's not as large of a conference, but if there's a lot of darn good schools uh and teams that play in that conference, like when you just watch the games, you know, you just can tell. Um, so is it do you see that? Was that kind of what was the formation of the CAC to be that, hey, every one of my schools, we're all in, we're going this way for lacrosse?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah, you you know, it's in every division, every conference, you're gonna have the haves and the have nots. You know, and um, you know, my my thing is, you know, when you go to some of these places, they like the idea of sports or they like the idea of having a a certain program, but they're not really giving you much opportunity to be successful other than an opportunity. You you get a maybe a marginal budget, you you get kind of a roster limit size, if that, or you know, um, you know, so it's hard to say because there's so many different levels, but we're we're kind of the anomaly in the CACC in the fact that it only costs 11.7,000 to go to school. You know, and and when you look at the competition just from a cost standpoint, you know, it's it's really unfair from from their standpoint to have to deal with a program like ours. As we have beautiful facilities, we have 22,000 students, um you know, we have almost nearly unlimited budgets to be successful. And it's you know, when I I talk with some other coaches or even my assistant coaches that are getting calls about you know becoming head coaches, they don't want to be in situations where they have a nice you know salary, but their budgets are a mess because now they have to fundraise. You know, some of these smaller schools are being furloughed or and budget cuts, or we want you to have a JV team, but you got to fundraise for it. Like that's you know, right? I just don't understand. I understand the growth of the game and I'm big at growing it, but if you're not going to do it right, or at least give the coaches a fighting chance to come out swinging, and and I think that's a little bit of why we had so much success. And I'm I'm certainly not drawing a correlation between us and and the other teams in the conference. Um, but we were when we joined, it was us and I believe Felician came in at the same time. Um, where Chestnut Hill has been teetering around the top 20 and four years now, and they've been around, they're they're kind of the eldest program in the country. And they've, you know, when Doc took over that program, you know, he had them firing at all cylinders, and and Mike's doing a great job. Mike Terranova's doing a great job winning the conference championship this year. Um, we took it on the chin this year, but we'll be back next year for sure. Um, but like Georgian Court, Mickey Hover, you know, he's a great coach. He's been a D3 guy and taken over and starting Georgian Court from scratch. So he's a guy that I I relied on in terms of just helping me understand the landscape of Division II. Um, because I I was never concerned about it. But you know, there's there's a lot of great coaches in our conference, guys that have been around the block a little bit. You know, Coach Terranova's coached a great deal of D1, D3, and now D2, and Mickey at D D3, and uh and uh now here at D2, um Caldwell starting up this year. I mean, they were a nightmare. I think they they actually beat Georgian court this year. Um oh no, I'm sorry, Dominican did, you know. So Dominican, yeah. Really at any point, I mean you you put a good game plan together, you get guys invested in into your system and and what you're doing. I mean, really anything can happen.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

I mean, given Sunday, we we say that a lot on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

You know, and it it really is at any given point. You watch college football, you see Notre Dame taken to the wire uh against Toledo and App State, you know, thing against Miami and Tulane against uh Oklahoma. And honestly, it I think it's the same here in Division II lacrosse is that there's so many people playing it now. Like we have so many different areas of the country that we can go to, and believe it or not, we've spend more time and have more success outside the mid-Atlantic area, um, getting guys from Florida, Louisiana, California, British Columbia, Utah. You know, we're we're getting guys from non-traditional across environments to come to play at Wilmington and and come out east and and be a part of uh a bigger pond, so to speak. And um, these guys can play. I mean, we we have guys from from all over the place that are coming in, and it's a little bit of a different kind of uh way that they play, but ultimately these these kids are hungry to learn. And that's why I think you see a lot of uh newer teams beating uh older teams, because you know, I can't tell you how many of these top tier division two teams are fully funded. You know, I was surprised to hear that some of these programs that you hear are perennial powerhouses are not fully funded. And um and I think just with a little support, and we're getting a great deal of support. I I mean we I got my Christmas bonus year and a COVID year. We've you know, we um we increased my budget. Um, you know, so we're getting support in kind of a damaged academic environment with what's happening with COVID and people being furloughed and losing jobs or pay cuts. I mean, we're we're healthy as all hell. And I think that when you get an administration, regardless of sport, regardless of location, you get an administration that really wants to win and support its student athletes and its coaches, it's spectacular to see the the quickness of how some of these programs can really do well. And and I attribute our early success to the support that we're getting from the president, from the athletic director, from from the board of trustees. I mean, it's it's great. They're giving us every resource for us to be successful. Um, and it doesn't hurt that it costs less than $12,000 a year to go straight.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

That's uh that's a huge bonus, I would say. Huge bonus. Yeah. So on that coach, um, I guess one thing that we always like to do on this podcast, and I know we've talked a lot about your your background and and D2 and the conference, but what would you like to tell um our audience specifically about the school and your program and what you're trying to do in the the besides the 11.7k, which to me as a data, that's that's pretty special.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

But I know there's you know for online classes, why pay forty thousand dollars a year when you can do it for twelve.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I just love you know, the floor is yours to really kind of uh talk about you know your your program, what you're what you're trying to do, and and the you know, and the school itself, all the benefits.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah, so you know, we um it's been a lot of hard work. You know, you you really don't have a a book that you can help you map out what to do in each step. You know, for us, you know, bringing in guys that I can trust, you know, guys that have been around the business. Um, you know, we unfortunately at the college level, you know, and where we are, we we call it work environments. You you know, you play a game, but everything is a work environment, whether it's classes, a work environment, practice, running, conditioning, film, everything we do has to do with kind of applying business and an organization and going to the office. And um, so for us, you know, we were very fortunate to to bring in the right guys when we started, you know, the right coaches. I have a wonderful committed coaching staff. I mean, I have a guy that drives from his son played at Delaney, and he drives up an hour and change uh up 95 to come and practice every day. And um, you know, we we have that commitment from the coaching staff, and and we really try and preach those type of things with our players. You know, we have three priorities for the guys, real simple. Faith and family come first, academic second, lacrosse third, and everything else is a distant fourth. Um, and the guys really buy into that. They they understand that, you know, they they are stout, they are now really implementing those priorities in their their daily lives, you know, and um I'm a family guy, you know, I'm um I I love to spend time with my family, and that's important to me. And when you have opportunities to do that or or give guys opportunities, like you know, when my first year, we had a guy whose grandmother was turning 90, and he he's like, Coach, I you know, I hate to do this. And I said, Go home. I know what you're gonna ask, go home. Your grandmother only takes, you know, is gonna turn 90 one time. Go home. Well, coach, you know, tomorrow is pregame practice. I don't want to miss anything. I'm like, Chris, go home and spend time with your grandmother. Come back and you know, but that happened because he was uh a beast in the classroom. He was a guy that again. Bought into faith and family, but the academic piece never had to worry that he was going to miss class, never had to worry that he wasn't going to get his assignments done. I never, never had to worry about them. And that's the type of guy that we like to have are guys that you can trust that are going to do the right thing when nobody's watching. And when you ask them to do something, it's going to get done. You know, we call that one-timer. You know, you hear it once, go and do it, finish it, complete your job. And we talk about job responsibilities. Handle your jobs. Do your jobs. You know what your jobs are, handle them. You know, and and um I had an opportunity to listen to a guy, Eric Kapatulik. Um he does an organization. If you haven't gotten his book or heard about him, there's a book called The Program. Um, and I actually have a hard copy of it, and I actually have it on Audible. And I literally, as I listen to it, I'm reading some of the stuff. So we've employed a lot of the stuff in that book, the program. Um, you know, we we divide up our team into squads. It creates leadership opportunities, and and we don't have anything more than four guys in a squad. We have a squad leader and three squad guys, squad members. And it just helps getting information out, collecting information, but we also build competitions. You know, we divide up the squads into teams and and they compete. And ultimately, what we try and do is everything that we do, whether it's running, lifting, anything on the lacrosse field, any type of conditioning times or lifting times, anything that we can put a winner and a loser to, we do that in the teams, but also in the squads. So guys don't want to be the bottom squad. They don't want to be on the losing team. And we actually have, you know, at the end, whichever team collection of squads in a team wins, they get stake, and the losers get hamburgers and hot dogs. Um, so guys don't want to get hamburgers and hot dogs at the at the end of the year. These guys are they're really getting after each other. And so we build those kind of philosophies and priorities that these guys are adopting and they're running with it. You know, we I don't set the culture, I help these guys with ideas on how to really create a culture of one caring, understanding, and love. You know, we want our guys to feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves, just like every coach does um with their programs, but we really take that to the next level. We want guys to really buy into the family atmosphere and that what I do or what I don't do impacts the whole. And I think that squad thing help really helps reinforce because if one individual in the squad gets in trouble or or something happens, you you know, then then the entire squad is part of that process. And you know, guys are gonna make mistakes, guys are going to do things that you're gonna be head scratching why what was going through your thought process. But you know, we encourage guys to make mistakes in a in a fun, safe environment where these guys can overcome some adversity and problem solve. Um, and the guys are really creating their own culture. Um, these guys wrote their own standards and expectations. So what we talked about that the program that that Eric Kapitolic does, um, and identifying key words that really define what your program is about. Accountability, responsibility, those things are big for us. And um, you don't want to let your teammates down. You don't want to be in a situation to do that. And it's really, you know, with the combination of the support that the university has um and what these guys are doing on a daily basis, it is really special. And you know, what was it in 2020 before COVID came? We were we were five and oh, we were we were getting some things done, and that was only our third year. Um so and making it to the championship game and and really our our our third full season was pretty spectacular. And these guys are are are creating their environment, like the the work these guys do and and putting it together is is almost like uh its own entity, it's its own breathing, living environment that these guys fully have control over because they know that if they can handle things their their own with the coach's guidance, they're better off than if me or my assistant could have control, you know, and they don't want to give control to the coaches, they would rather handle things on their own. And it's really remarkable what these young men have done in such a short period of time. You know, one of the other things I like to highlight when we started this, remember I said we only had 18 players on the program. And I said, Well, how am I gonna get some strong student athletes in our program? Guys that are gonna attend to the academics, guys that were coming in were guys that that maybe struggled academically, but here was an opportunity for them. We went from dead last in the athletic department in terms of team GPA to last year we had the most academic awards on campus of any sport on campus. And out of 40 all conference academic all-conference spots, we had 12 of the so we had more than 25 percent of the all academic spots, and the next closest was eight. So, you know, and and out of 36 guys on the roster, 28 of our guys had 3.0 or higher, with another two at 2.9. So these guys are killing it in terms of handling the academic rigors, but also that being an athlete. And one of the things that I'd like to highlight, I think, is another part of the reason why we're so successful is that we do block scheduling at Wilmington. So we practice from 9 to 11 in the morning. All our lacrosse commitments are done at 11 a.m. So there's no interrupting your day with practice or having to do anything at 6, 7, 8 o'clock at night. Now you're missing dining hall and you're missing all this done at 11. Like lifting, meetings, training room, all that is done at 11. And through the block scheduling, you divide up the 15-week regular full-time semester of your Monday, Wednesday, Friday classes and Tuesday, Thursday with the block scheduling, they can go to class one day a week. So they can out two classes on a Monday or it in the evening. And with the block scheduling, as long as you're registered for your 12 to 12 full-time credits, you can break up those 12 credits or 15 credits over the two blocks. So we have, you know, if you you think about it in in the spring, if we start practice January 10th, seven weeks gets us to the end of February. Well, we're home, we're practicing at home, we're scrimmaging at home. Everything that we're doing from a lacrosse aspect is really home, except for you know, late February where our season starts. So we tell guys to front load their their block one schedule with three classes and then take two classes in block two, which is the season. So these guys are focusing on two and three classes at a time, not five. Right. These guys are able to get internships and co-ops and GPAs get higher and it's it's great. I mean, there's a lot of correlation to what we're doing academically and what these guys can do, whether it's online. We were 100% online capable before COVID even started. So when they said, Oh, we're going online, okay, no big deal. You know, there was no adjustment that had to be made, it was already handled. So, you know, the flexibility of the schedule that these guys can make, the early practice times, you know, the support that these guys are given academically and and through the program. I mean, these guys have no reason not to be successful. And we're getting the right guys in, like quality versus quantity. I I could easily get to 50 if I want to, you know, if that's the the number. I I don't need to. Every single one of my guys can step out on the field and play. All 32 guys that I have on the roster right now, I have no problems whether it's I'm playing, you know, the last team in Division II or the top team. All 32 guys can play for me. Every single one of them. And they do. They all fly.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

That's excellent. That's excellent.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

And you don't see that, you know. You see teams that have a 55-man roster and they play 17 guys. Where's the investment? That's right. Where's my role? You know, how how am I? That's right. You know, and and I don't like to over-recruit. You know, I'm I'm very passionate in keeping the PSA, the prospective student athletes, interests at heart. Because without them, I wouldn't have a job, you know, and and if they can't play for me, then I'll tell them, go play for somebody else. Go go someplace where you can enjoy your four years, go and play. And um, you know, because I want them to be happy. I don't want them to come here and and not be happy because that creates more problems, you know, down the road. So, you know, and one of the things that I like to highlight too is with the advent of the transfer portal, we haven't had one player enter the transfer portal. Phenomenal. You know, and and kids are happy here, you know, they have roles, they understand what they need to do to improve, they understand um how to help their teammates, you know, even if it might be from a scout team standpoint. Um, but we don't have the those clickiness where it's upperclassmen versus underclassmen. We have guys that that truly care about one another. And if you're on the program, then coach saw something. And you're you're part, you know. Obviously, you have to earn it, you know, you're gonna get opportunities to earn it, and that's the only thing that's gonna be given to you is opportunities. But these guys are rolling with it. And um, we're we're excited about where we are from a recruiting standpoint. We're excited about the direction. You know, I uh we we put on uh Florida Tech this or Florida Tech, we're playing at Calvert Hall under the lights in Baltimore. What a special environment that's gonna be. An out-of-region, you know, top-tier team that we have an opportunity to play against. Mercy, number eight team in the country, is coming to our place. Um, pace, we're going to pace. Just like that. We're gonna see definitely once. Who knows? Yeah. You know, depending on how things shake out. So we got four top 20 teams that we just put on our schedule because I think our guys are ready. You know, we have a very talented um face-off guy. He he took last year off. So, you know, we struggled at the face-off X if you watched us play, but we're not gonna have those problems. He was part of the reason uh Anton Mackey um from PA, he was part of the reason why we were five and out. And he was not not having a true face-off guy last year, really hurt us. But we got all the pieces of the puzzle. Um, we have Louisiana's all-time score record holder and two-time state uh all-American and state champion from Louisiana. I mean, we we have guys that can play, and I think we're gonna shock some teams. We got Harford's goalie from uh Harford Community College. I think he's the best junior college goalie in the country. He's he's on campus, he's he's wearing the green and black right now. So we're uh we're gonna be scary, you know, and I think um hopefully we'll have opportunities to show that we can compete on the national level this this spring.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Well, it's you know it's forward to the spring. I'm sorry, Kevin. I'm looking forward to the biggest.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

I'm just gonna say that you're you you may be scaring uh other other teams, but you're making it exciting for those of us who watch, and that's what we like to. Unless you played my son's team, then maybe I'd be scared. And then uh we won't I'm not gonna divulge that, so I don't want you to put him on the schedule or anything.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

But yeah, well, I'm gonna be googling your last name. I'll find out who it's not hard.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

It's not it's not a it's not a common household name.

SPEAKER_00 56:42

No, no, you can't hide with a name like that. Same thing with Zwicker. Moran probably about five million morans.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah, just in my neighborhood.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Just in your neighborhood, right? Is that where they all come from, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Is that where they all are?

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Well, I'm I'm originally from Rockaway Beach, which is Queens. Um Bronx, originally Bronx to Rockaway, now living on Long Island. So came all of us came from Leitrim at one point, County Leitram, and uh and uh I'm the only lacrosse one. I'm the only Moran that plays lacrosse.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Yeah, my dad went to Fordham. I was like, you went to school here? Yeah, yeah, I had to go see what Fordham looked like.

SPEAKER_02 57:27

Beautiful campus.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Oh, gorgeous campus, absolutely gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Yeah, so coach, we can't thank you enough uh for coming on. It's been uh it's it's been a very, very fast hour worth of time that we just uh we can't thank you enough uh for uh for coming on and joining us. Um once again, every time we do this, Danny, we we learn more about the school and and different uh uh niches from different programs and and cultures, and it's it's just been phenomenal again.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Well, Coach Swicker's got something going on here, Kevin. Um Donald Wilmington. Um he's got players, he's got um support from from the university, he's got facilities, he's got pedigree with coaching, his assistant coaches have pedigree. Hey, recruits, if you're out there and you're listening to this, send your videos to coach and uh see where you can.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

You're gonna be watching you on streaming, live stream.

SPEAKER_02 58:29

So because this is a program that's on its way up and it's on its way up quickly, folks. Definitely. Coach, thank you so much for coming on and spending some time with us. We had a great time. I hope you did too.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Oh guys, this has been great. I mean, when you get an opportunity to kind of brag about your players and and what you have, I mean, I I've been in the have nots, you know, a bunch of times, and it it's hard. You you know, you you work even harder when you don't have that type of stuff. And and um, but it it's been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate you guys reaching out to give me the opportunity to introduce myself and and the program and and what we're doing at university to to guys that maybe haven't even thought about division two or maybe thought about you know trying an upstart program, but there's a lot of opportunities, you know, in programs like ours. There's a lot of great coaches out there doing a lot of wonderful things. And there's no joke, you you know, I'll be the first one to swallow my words, you know, when I was a division three and a division one guy, that you know, division two has really, really done an amazing job of uh of putting out quality programs, quality players all over the place. I mean, it's just more opportunities, you know, and I'm very thankful to do what I do. I was listening to College Game Day over the weekend and and uh or two weekends ago and heard um you know Ernie Johnson's talk at Alabama and that he has a get-to job, not a got-to job. You know, I get to that's a cross coach. I get to spend time with with these young men and helping them and get to know their families. Like I truly appreciate the opportunity that I have because coaches and teachers, I I think they have the the most opportunity to impact more lives. And um and I certainly I certainly don't take that lightly, you know, my role as as part of their development process and and to help parents and support what the parents have done to this point and help them become strong men in today's society. Good husbands, good leaders, good fathers, good good friends, teammates, all that type of stuff. So I can't thank you enough, guys. If there's anything I can do to support you guys, if you guys do any X's and O's, you know, certainly give me a call. I'll jump on anytime.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:53

We we've offered this to the other coaches, we'll do the same to you. We'll bring you on in the spring for a few minutes, and you can teach us some X's and O's on what happened in the game. Awesome. We would love it. We would love it. I'd love to. So just before we go, Danny, I we got one thing to add. And and Coach tonight has been really good at kind of being that uh set up, setup guy, right? I mean, we he's making a lot of connections for us. Well, he talked about social media. Well, guess what, Danny? In the crease is starting to dabble in social media. So I started, I had a little extra time on my hands this weekend, and I started an account for us on Instagram so that we could get the word out more, and then maybe people can follow us. But what's been really great is I've been I and then we're all we're following on In the Crease Instagram all the all the lacrosse teams. And I can just swipe through and see what they're doing on their fallball practice with their videos or or what their prospect days are coming up, and and we'll definitely try to get that out in the next few podcasts and and do that. But people can follow us there and and and we'll be following the teams through Instagram from now on. Sounds good, Kev. That's we're we're getting into the 2000s, huh? It's funny. I I try to I I could barely do Facebook for years. I don't have enough time for this. And and but as we get into this podcast, I'm like, well, it's not my account, it's gonna be for the podcast. Sounds okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

This is evolving. This is fantastic. Yeah, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

It's growing. This this is growing too, coach, like your program. Absolutely. That's great. Well, once again, Coach Swickert from Wilmington, thanks so much for coming on. And uh, best of luck this season. We'll be watching, and the boys from In the Creek really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

No doubt. Enjoy uh enjoy the fall games if you get an opportunity to watch some with your sons, and uh hopefully we'll be seeing you sometime in the spring. Sounds great, Coach. Thanks. All right, take care, guys. Appreciate it.