"Inside the Lines: The NCAA's 5-for-5 Rule and Its Impact on College Sports

Intro

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of In the Creest with Danny and Kevin, a coast-to-coast discussion of these two lines of frost. I'm your co-host, Kevin Sentrum, and with me as always is the man who, as of tomorrow, is fun employed, Danny Moran.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Hey Danny. Kevin, how are you? That was a thank you for the introduction. And that was a hold on, a quality introduction itself. Yeah. Well, well deserved.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

40 plus years probably. Have you been working in the industry?

SPEAKER_05 1:05

43 years. I came in in August of 84. I started the apprenticeship in the electrical union. And tom today was my last full day. And tomorrow they're giving me a little something and like a little clap off, I guess, tomorrow morning.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

So rocking chair or a watch, something like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

Just a lot of thank yous for showing them how to do things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

They won't have you to lean on anymore.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

Well, I'm part of the old guard, you know, and there's not many of us left anymore. You know, it's a whole new, younger regime, different culture, you know, a whole different thing now. So it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Yeah, well, hats off to you, my friend. That that's uh awesome, awesome career that you had. Uh doing that for so many years in the conditions that you had to do it. I I uh I thank you for your service in the union.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Well, thank you. You know, trying to keep New York lit, you know, trying to keep all the lights on in New York City, keep all the power going. You know, it's been an interesting uh career. I've got to work on some of the most iconic buildings in the world. Um, you know, Empire State Building, uh I just just to name a few, you know, uh the uh World Trade Center before the bombings, uh World Trade Center after the first bombing, uh ground zero after the buildings came down. I worked um for about 18 months or so, and just I had a great career. I was able to provide for my family, have a house, you know. We didn't leave in a trailer or anything like that. We had a home and the kids had their own room and they had iPads and iWatches and iyes and just everything that you could want that a kid can want. So it's been a good career, but it's time to let the young guys take it over. You know what I mean? Yeah, and enjoy your life. But I appreciate that, my friend. I do.

5 for 5 Rule

SPEAKER_05 2:54

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 2:54

Well, Danny, let's move on. We have got a really cool episode today, I think. As everyone probably knows by now that's listening, there's a new rule out this year, this season in the NCAA called the five for five rule. I know you have done a lot of research on it.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

I have because, you know, um I had a son that graduated in 2022 and was kind of in that mix a little bit that was going on. Um, so it was definitely intriguing to me. But nobody kind of knew what was going on. It was kind of crazy. Um, nobody knew which way is up. So I think tonight's theme music could be some old school funk.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I think it's good. Old school which way is up, which way we don't know which way is up with this five for five rule.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Well, I'm I was hoping you were going to enlighten us, but because you've done so much research, I had to bring in some reinforcements. Someone who is living it in his job today as director of compliance at Lees McCrae, our good friend, Coach Brad Dunn.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Hey coach, gentlemen, how are we doing tonight? Good, how are you? Oh, just living the dream, baby. Living the dream.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

Coach Dunn, welcome back to the program. Yeah, he's he's great, he's our most reliable guest ever.

SPEAKER_04 4:45

Yeah, I text him, he's like, I'm honored. When do you need me?

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Oh, that's great. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

So let's get into it. Coach, why don't you explain the rule to us as you know it?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah, so um obviously this all came to light at the beginning of August for Division II. Um Division I passed legislation um for what is known as the five and five rule or five four five um earlier this summer. Um, so in an effort to try to keep everything sort of streamlined, division two came together and um agreed to uh our version of this. Um what most people may or may not recall was we actually had this on the dockets at last year's NCAA convention. Right. Um it was proposed uh back in January. Well, the convention was in January, um, and it ended up in the in the last few hours uh getting shot down. Um not knowing that Division I was going to adopt it. Um so ultimately they kind of just uh circled the wagons a little bit and um and went ahead and moved forward with uh with the uh brushed off the old proposal. Yeah, brushed off the old proposal and exactly back till exactly just just brushed it off and said, heck, you know, everybody, everybody knows it, so let's just go ahead and move forward with it. So um, you know, the big thing is you know everybody keeps referring to it as the five for five rule. Well, that's you know, honestly, that's not super accurate. Um does it mean you could play for five years? Possibly, but it all depends on a couple different factors. Um it it's looking at your age or your initial enrollment into higher education, whether that be at a junior college, um an NAIA, D1, D2, D three, an international college, doesn't matter. Whenever you initially enroll in higher education, that begins what people term as your clock. Um so it for most people, yeah, they'll be able to get five years of eligibility over the course of five years in age. Um, but you know, if you have a delayed enrollment, there are some some caveats that we'll uh we'll kind of review here so that uh the listeners hopefully get a better uh idea of what's going on in the world and what it's gonna look like moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Yeah, so let's use that as a quick example. You talked about junior college. Um, if you so you enroll junior college, say you do two years of junior college, you're playing a sport there, or you're not playing a sport, maybe it doesn't even matter, and then you go to a school that is sanctioned, a four-year school or a university, it's sanctioned by the NCAA. Does that technically mean you only have three years of eligibility in a sport when you get to that campus?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

It does. It does. Now it all depends on if you enroll full-time. Okay. So ultimately, there's like I said, there's two different avenues to begin your clock. Okay. Avenue number one is going to be initial full-time enrollments in higher education. Okay. So if you start at a JUCO, you go, you do your 12 semester 12 credit hours, which you know qualifies you as a full-time student, your clock begins that semester. Okay. So a traditional lacrosse player, you know, graduates from high school in May, says, I'm gonna go the JUCO route for two years, they try to get a few more looks, they enroll full-time in that August. Their clock is going to start right then. Right. Okay. Doesn't matter if it's division one, division two, division three, that doesn't matter. Their clock has started once they start full-time enrollment. Okay. The second caveat is what the age-based trigger is what they're calling it. Right. Okay. And this is uh this is where it gets a little a little dicey, and this is where honestly division two separates themselves from D1. With the age-based trigger, you're looking at when the student athlete's 19th birthday occurs. If their birthday falls before September 1st, okay, their eligibility clock will begin at the start of a regular academic year immediately following their 19th birthday. Okay. So let's just say you're a, you know, you're a 4th of July baby. Okay. You turn 19 the summer after you graduate from high school. Most everybody's graduating high school, you know, at around age 18. Right. Um, so 4th of July comes, we're shooting fireworks off for you because you just turned 19, your clock is going to start that fall. Okay. It's gonna start that fall. Whether you're enrolled or not, your clock will start that day. Okay. Now, if you turn 19 on or after September 1st, you actually get an entire year because your period of eligibility does not begin until the subsequent academic year. Unless you enroll full time before. Okay. So think about your mid-year enrollees. Right. Okay. Your mid-year enrollees or you know, your early enrollees, those individuals will then, once they're enrolled, their clock is going to start. Okay. But if they don't enroll, so if you're born, you know, uh September 11th, God bless them. Um if you're born on September 11th, you turn 19 on September 11th, as long as you don't enroll in college full time, your clock will not start until the following fall.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Okay. So you can get you can get a little creative. Now, granted, that only falls for those born in the you know, September, October, November, and December, right? Right, right. Um, so it's a you know, it's a smaller window, but generally speaking, those are you know, your your 17-year-olds that are enrolling in college at 17, um, are you know, because they're just now turning 18, or you know, the ones who you know, their their birthdays fall later in the year, they might have started school earlier, or you know, right. As parents, you guys, you know, have always heard about oh, when when should I enroll my my child in kindergarten and start their start their stocks? So there's a little bit of a play there. Um, but again, for most for most who are enrolling following the quote unquote traditional path, graduate from high school in in the spring, early summer, start in the fall of that same year, their clock is starting at that point. Okay, got it, and they get the benefit of being able to play this beautiful game for five years.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

So let me ask you this question, as an as an example, because Danny and I were talking about this last week uh when off camera, off podcast. Reclassing down a year or taking a postgraduate year, the only people that or student athletes that will really help are those born September after September 1st, because they've because they're not enrolled in college yet, and they can wait and and wait a full year and get that extra time, et cetera, et cetera. Am I looking at that correctly? Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

So for those who take a PG year or postgrad year, their clock will begin, they're gonna be more on the age-based right um trigger, if you will. Yeah, right. Okay, because they're gonna turn 19 at some point during that PG year, right? So they're gonna start at the subsequent school year.

SPEAKER_04 14:24

Right, but if you say you're gonna do your PG year, PG year and your birthday is July 4th, right? Guess what?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Your clock started.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Your clock started September 1st, and that PG year, now you've got the only the opportunity to play four years at the NCAA level.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

So if your birthday falls before September 1st, yes.

SPEAKER_05 14:46

So if you ask me, and I'm just thinking off the top of my head, you know, a lot of guys that reclass usually do that to get bigger, stronger, faster, get another year under their belt of looks and whatnot, it helps them out a lot. That's not gonna be such the story this time. I mean, you know, reclassing might not help you anymore. You know, you're gonna have to like suck it up and go in with your class.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

You are, you are, but again, the added beauty of you're getting five years of college lacrosse or college athletics, you know. So, you know, that that first year, you can't really call it a freshman year anymore, because you know, you could go for five. Um, so that first year that you're there could almost serve as that PG year, but now you get the added benefit of being on the roster, wearing the jersey, being under that coach. So it's almost, I I personally look at it as an added benefit for those who are in that in that sort of mindset of, oh, I need that extra year. Well, heck, take that extra year on campus with that coach, with those teammates, with those those guys that you know you could that you're gonna end up being around for five years.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

See you look at Coach Dunn taking the positive aspect to it. I love it, I love it. I have to ask you this, because we texted when it first came out, Coach, and I thought that this make would make your job maybe easier as a compliance director. Have you felt that yet? Are you still trying to figure this whole thing out? Especially Danny mentioned it a little bit. There's some court cases out there, so your job and how you actually have to deal with it could be in limbo.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah. Um my hope is eventually this will make things easier. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Um these next couple years, this year especially, get a little bit easier next year, then in you know three years from now, you know, counting this year, um, we'll be pretty smooth sailing. Um, but as we navigate uh the current world that we're in right now, with incoming our you know, our first years on campus right now and our returning athletes, um, we're having to go through and evaluate each individual athlete to determine which model is best for them. And now when I say model, we're talking about the old four years, you got five years to play four versus the new model of the five to play five. Because there are certain sit uh certain situations where if a uh a young man or young woman already had gotten uh an approved waiver through the NCAA to extend their eligibility, well, we don't want to put them under the age-based model because technically they would have already aged out. Right. So there are a few, um, you know, there are there are some out there that it will actually still benefit them from being under the old model of the four years to play five, including waivers. Because that's the big thing. That's the big thing that is changing. The NCAA is coming out and saying, hey, we're gonna give you five years, but that's all you got. So if you if you get that ACL tear, um you know, or you have something happen to you, sorry, Charlie. You know, that that's just a year, right? Yeah, um, so you know, there are certain times and certain situations. Um, I'm dealing with a couple of them here on on our campus, where it's like, okay, we actually want to keep you under what is you know the old model, the the four-year with waiver model, so that you can get an additional year.

unknown 19:02

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:03

Understood. Oh, you know, I'm thinking this all goes back, I think, to the start of the NIL. I think that that this is what started this whole thing. Because once NIL got involved in the money and the k and the kids started making money, in particular the basketball schools and the football schools, those kids are making big money. And they were they were going from school to school to school to school to follow the money wherever somebody had the transfer portal with that, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:33

Both goes together.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Right. Hey, how about the kid Matty Sluka, the quarterback from Kellenberg High School here on Long Island? Holy cross. Went to your Holy Cross, played for two years, balled out, put his name in the portal. UNLV came looking. So apparently, Matty Sluka was offered $600,000 to go play football at UNLV, played like three or four games, was doing great. The team was doing great, and apparently he never received his money, and the kid quit. He quit on him. That's not school anymore. That's business. Yeah, that's that's work. You know, that's what, hey man, you didn't pay me my money. I quit. That's where we're going with this. And I, you know, I saw uh an interview with Rick Pettino, basketball coach at St. John's. At the time, he was at Iona and he was talking about, hey, we're in the Mac conference, not the greatest conference for basketball. We're like a mid-major level, you know, Fairfield, St. Joe's, St. Bonaventure. We're not playing the Dukes, we're not playing the uh Gonzagas. At the end of the year, half his team got poached. Literally, like 50% of his team. So he said, I've never had to do this before, where I used to go to AAU games and high school games and watch kids and look to recruit. Now I'm going into the portal. I'm going up to my guys at the end of the year. Are you staying? Are you going? Are you staying? Are you going? And then I got to figure it out then. So this NIL had made guys go from school to school to school to school following the money. They red shirt, they get hurt. They play two games, they get hurt, they red shirt, they got another year of eligibility. For example, in Division II, not that it's his fault, but Christian Tomei, the um the goalie out of Delphi, who's phenomenal. He's a good kid and everything. But here's a kid that kind of did that. Went from school to school to school, redshirted a year, took a year off, juke. Got injured.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

He got injured. Now he's 26, 27 years old, and he's in his last year of eligibility. He, under the old rule, he still has eligibility. I think what this new rule is doing is putting a stop to all of that. They're gonna let you no more redshirting and receiving a year. Is that correct, Coach?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

You're exactly right. You're exactly right. Yeah. What the the the The NCAA likes to say, and I will read this verbatim from my notes, is this is to establish a simpler single five-year eligibility period tied to the age and college enrollment. That's it. We're giving you five years, whether it starts because of your 19th birthday or it starts whenever you first enroll in higher education, you're going to get five years and you're going to be done. You know, you mentioned, you know, you mentioned all the lawsuits. And this is where, again, I've had to I've had to educate a lot of individuals on this campus is you know, those lawsuits are specific to division one. And they're specific to division one because of what you just said. The money. So they're trying to make a you know, trying to make more money, as we all are. Um so, but when you hear, you know, hear about all these lawsuits, as we sit here today, and it can change, but as we sit here today, all those lawsuits are pertaining specifically to division one. Division two does not have any active lawsuits uh pending.

SPEAKER_05 23:35

So now, but division two always seems to follow division one. I mean, they did in this respect here, you know, division one proposed this to the NCAA, and a couple of months later, Division II followed suit as as well as Division III. So they're trying to keep it the same across the three boards on the three leagues and NCAA. It looks like they're trying to keep everything the same. You know, the money with the NIL, when you talk about, like I said, it was the big basketball schools and the big football schools mainly. I read recently where I mean the money that's involved with this, with these kids or that they're making is almost out of control. Let's put it this way. I read just recently that if you're a five-star basketball player, five star, six ten or above, you're looking at one to two mil. You're 18. You've never been out of your county. You know what I mean? And you're signing up to play basketball to college and getting paid between one and two million dollars a year. Who cares if you go pro? You're making your money. You know, so now these kids are staying forever, you know, red shirting, taking a year off and getting paid. And that it had to stop. It had to stop. Something had to go, something had to change.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Yeah, yeah, I I agree. I think in the end, I think this is will be a a really good rule. I mean, let's take out the the tragedy of getting injured, right? And the way and and that's always tough because you don't get to play, but bottom line is you still have four years, just like you would have if it were under the old rule, right? Even if you were injured and you sat out a year, you're still only playing four years if you if you get the eligibility. So I think it it kind of evens out. But I have a question, coach. What about schools that are only four-year colleges don't have graduate programs? How do you see that? Do you see that affecting recruiting? Obviously, a lot of players who could go to those schools. My my alma mater, holy cross, is not a university, it's a college, it's a four-year school. And oh, by the way, they expect you to graduate in four years. You don't get a fifth year, it's like the Ivy Leagues, right? Right. Just like the Ivy Leagues do, you have they have to go look for that fifth year. So look about that in Division II. There are a lot, I'm I know there are just colleges, not universities. Do you see that affecting recruiting? How do you see that playing out?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

You know, I can speak to what we're doing here at Lees McRae. Um, we are fortunate that we do have a few graduate programs um established, and we're actually gonna be adding more um starting uh maybe as early as next fall. Um part of this was already in the works prior to um this rule, but you know, it it did get expedited when uh when this rule came out. Um so you we're gonna be seeing an MBA because you know that's obviously one of the largest, if not the largest, master's programs out there. Um but for those, you know, for those individuals, you know, they're still going to have that additional year of eligibility that they could potentially pursue a master's program at another institution. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Um you know, you saw it a lot with, like you said, the Ivies um and and the COVID year, right? Everybody got their year back because of COVID. And then you saw, you know, was um, you know, I think Michael Sowers, right, transferred um to Duke. And um, you know, you saw a bunch of the the premier Ivy players take advantage of that fifth year at other institutions. Um, so you know it's gonna be a uh a strategic decision by each institution if they want to try to leverage the new rules that the NCAA have in place. Um, you know, maybe some of them do loosen and say, hey, you know, if you want to do it for five, we can do it for five. Um, you know, but there's a ton of factors that play into that. Sure. Um you know, are you going, you know, is a coach going to be willing to scholarship you for five? Right. You know, that was my last question. Obviously, you know, at the D2 level, we're not, you know, we're not fully funded programs, you know, so there's a lot of kids still paying significant tuition, even if they have a athletic scholarship. Um, so then you got to decide, you know, do I want to spend that extra however many thousands of dollars just so I can play an additional year at this school? So there will be a lot of decisions that need to be made um at the family level for these for these upcoming recruits. The beauty of it is the option is there. Right. Right. There's no you don't have to go five years. If you know, right, as most D2s do, they know that they're gonna play their career, they're gonna finish their career, they're gonna move on to men's league and get a job.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And if your goal is to is to graduate in four years, then heck, you could play four years and you can go on and you can uh replace Danny as the you know the next great electrician of New York.

SPEAKER_05 29:13

Yeah. Here's another thing that's kind of weird, too, is uh the the recent class that just graduated, the 2022 class. So the guys that finished their four years this past spring, um, they don't have any more eligibility left. You had five years of guys prior to that because of COVID with five years. And then everybody after the twenty-two class gets five years. Now you got some guys in that twenty-two class in division one suing to get more playtime. Hey, we're the twenty-two's, how come we only got four years? Why can't we get a fifth year as well? Well, the NCA double A shot that down. Uh it was gone to appeals, and I think it's still up in the air as of right now. I don't think that that's been fully you know ruled on. Could a chance be that some of these 2022s will be allowed to play again? Is that a possibility? Because I feel that listen, I I'm an old school guy. I like the four years, you go to school for four years, I like the old model, you know, just you go to school for four years, you you know, you get hurt, you miss a time, you lose time. That's just the way of the world, you know what I mean? And I just think that's an old school way of thinking, I guess you could say, that I have. It's you know, amateur. They're not they're not pros yet. Yet they're getting paid in some areas like pros. Uh, some are even getting better, play paid better than pros. I mean, a football player on a practice squad on the Raiders is only getting like $390,000. And an 18-year-old five-star basketball player, six, ten, and above, has a chance of making a million or two million in a year at in the college level. So now you have this class at 22. For example, my son's class that just graduated, they only had four years. They're kind of crying a little bit like, hey, everybody ahead of us had five years, and everybody behind us has five years. Why couldn't we get the fifth year? So you got that going on, and I think they have a legitimate point, but now that the season has started, you know, football and volleyball and some of these sports have already started, I don't know what to think about that anymore. So it's there were some gray areas there, but I think the NCAA and these courts are getting it more tight, and it seems like they kind of have w what they have moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, it uh you know, I would certainly say from my position now as a compliance director, I hope we don't have any more changes. You know, let's let's let's work this thing from the next oh, I don't know, 10, 20, 30 years, um, and uh and and not make all these changes because it's it has felt like something new has come down the pipe uh almost weekly, it feels like.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

How many questions do you get a day, coach? How many questions a day do you get?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

You know, it's we've had a lot. We've had a lot. Um you know, our our start of the year meetings with the coaches um were were pretty in-depth. Um, I I did my best to try to educate my coaches as best as possible. Um, you know, I'm still meeting with uh with a lot of them to discuss each individual player, like I mentioned, because current roster and this incoming class that just showed up on campus, they had the option of either or, right? Either the five, you know, the five for five or the play four in 10 semesters with waivers. Um, so you know, been navigating, navigating, trying to figure out what's truly best for each student athlete. Because each student athlete's case can be a little bit different. Sure. Um so you know, getting through all that has been has been daunting. Um, but you know, we're all working hard. Um the NCAA eligibility center has has been great. They're the ones who are actually adjudicating um the age-based requirements. Um, so I've had several of my um you know first year uh student athletes on campus this year actually had to go in and verify um verify their age. They had to go to a third party that the uh NCAA contracted uh to verify their age. Well uh moving forward, obviously, as you know, we'll we should be able to do it via their high school transcripts, and they have a couple different ways uh to make it a little bit smoother. But you know, thankfully the eligibility center has has done a really good job of of taking hold of of that. Um they're just asking us on campus to to just double check and just make sure that we are doing what's best for the student athletes who are on campus now. So um it's interesting. Yeah, there's been a lot of questions, there's been a you know, and it and it's still, we're still getting a lot of communication about it. Um, you know, making sure that, you know, hey, if you need to get a waiver in, are you, you know, do you have it within the right amount of time? And um, so there's there has been a lot. That's been a it's been a hectic, you know, month and a half, almost two months now. Um, but again, you know, we all can kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel and how this will ultimately benefit the future of Division II athletics.

SPEAKER_05 35:06

Now, what kind of pressure does it put on the coaches? I mean, it's different now. It's like recruiting is a little bit different. You got to find out what kind of pressure has gone on with the coaches?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, it's um it is a drastic shift. It really was a drastic shift. Um, you know, I have I have some coaches on my campus who, you know, almost relied on that um that red shirt year, that initial eligibility red shirt year. Because remember, we actually had for one year, we had the rule, uh, what they called the 30% rule. So last year's freshmen could play up to 30% of the NCAA limit and still retain eligibility. That was only a one-year thing. Um that's out the window now.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah, we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Uh so you know, we were we were kind of juggling, um, we were juggling that, and some coaches were like, heck, I'm gonna use this, you know, as a fifth year. You know, they're still gonna get an opportunity to play, get on the field for 30%, and then I'm gonna have them for four full seasons. So um kind of having to shift that mindset a little bit for uh for the coaches, uh it can be it can be a little uh a little difficult. But from a recruiting standpoint, you know, every coach is going to, you know, has their own recruiting model, you know. Right. Um, but you know, having to look and evaluate a young man or a young woman, um, you know, do you look at someone who might be, as they say, a little bit more of a developmental project, knowing that you can have them for five years.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Um, you really like what they offer, but you know, they need that little bit more. Um, you know, there there have been, and this is me speaking as a former coach, you know, I would look at a young man and be like, he's a great young man, he's just not ready. Right. He's not ready, and I need somebody who can contribute right away. Whereas now it's like, hey, you know what? Maybe I can groom him for one year, and if I work really hard, then he can be a contributor for four years, versus, you know, where I might have just passed on that young man because, you know, heck, I can't burn one. He's only got four. I don't want to burn one or one and a half or even two years. Um, so you know, you might have to change that mindset a little bit. But then you also have the opportunity, maybe you look in the transfer portal, you know, maybe you can find a kid, whether it's, you know, uh has played four years and is looking for that master's degree, or you know, played for two years, you can bring them on for three, you know. Um, so you get a little bit more seasoned individual for an additional year. Um, so you know, every coach is going to look at it a little bit differently. Uh, and it's all it's all recruiting philosophy. You know, some are some are you know, bring them in and groom them, some are, hey, I need I need guys who can go right now. Um it's just it's it's how they want to run their individual programs.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

So let me ask you this. This going to the recruiting size of recruiting class, let's talk D1 to D2. D1, most D1 programs are capped at 48 players. You add in that fifth year and them actually holding positions probably for transfer players. You've got a smaller class, recruiting class, I've heard like five, six, certainly probably not in the double digits anymore. Do you see that as a actually potential benefit for D2 programs? Kids maybe student athletes really having to open their aperture a little bit more to see where they can actually go because they're not all gonna let's face it, they could have been recruited before into a a either a top D1 or a mid mid-tier D one and never see the field. Now they're not even gonna get that that look, potentially. What what do you think about that, coach?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, no, I mean, obviously the the D2 homer in me loves to think that, you know what, we're recruiting the same level. Um, you know, we're recruiting the five stars just like the you know the dukes and UNCs and um Virginias of the world. But yeah, absolutely. There's you know, those elite, elite talents um will still end up going D1. Right, but those fringe players, yeah, uh it's going to open open the floodgates for them to be you know solid contributors at our level for five years. Yep. Um, and and those who maybe are still chasing that D1 dream after two years, if they haven't sniffed it, you know what? They still have three down with us. Um so yeah, I I think the roster capping, um, and again, especially it it'll all level out. Everything will eventually level out once we get several years down the road. But these next couple of years, there's going to be some young men um in our sport, young women, um, who heck, they might have already had an offer on the table that is gonna get rescinded because of this this five uh you know, this new rule at the at the D1 level. Um so just drop down to us and you know be a five-time who's gonna be the first five five-time all-American, right? Right. Uh you know, it's never happened before. Um, you know, so there's your recruiting pitch right there.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

I see Coach Grant Jr. pitching that right now.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Absolutely, absolutely be you know, be the first ever to be a five-time NCAA all-American, right? Um, and and then and it's very possible. It's very possible.

SPEAKER_05 41:22

Now, I've heard through the grapevine that uh some of these D1 schools, the bigger schools in lacrosse, are starting to pay NIL money to some guys. I've heard you know, anywhere up from 70 grand up to over a hundred grand for some players to come in. What they're doing is they're c they're getting those senior kids with a year of eligibility left that were either all Americans or captains on their squad, guys that were all conference and just you know, guys that were balling out, they're putting their name in the portal and they're getting paid now. Um I see the way I see it, the way you've explained it, Brad, is that there's going to be less opportunities for freshmen at that D1 level. I think it opens the door way up, way up for Division II. And then if you look at see what kids like Kyle Lewis from a Delphi Division II, Vinnie Batrico on the Atlas from Division II, Connor Farrell from post-division two, you're seeing division two players in the pros. I think maybe that stigma about division two is going to start to go away a little bit. You know, that D2 is not real and all of that BS that goes on out there. D two is real and it's really real. And there's I've been involved with Division II since 2009. I've seen players that were clearly Division I players. They fall through the cracks, whatever, the late developer. They, you know, they grow late in their high school career. So I see it being a lot different for high schoolers now coming up. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

I I couldn't agree more. Um, again, I I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you what or how the NIL program will continue to grow and evolve. Um, but you're exactly right. It is absolutely trickling down from the footballs, the basketballs of the world. You know, you're starting to see, like you mentioned, you're starting to see these other sports have the availability to offer NIL packages. Now, you know, what and I'll just say this as a lacrosse homer. Would I love to see somebody get a million dollar NIL deal as a lacrosse player? Sure. That's great. You know, support the game, you know, because I know it'll come back to us, because that's just how lacrosse is, right? Right, right. But with the evolution. of the NIL and the growth of the NIL and collectives and um you know I mean it it is a business opportunity for those outside of outside of these universities to contribute to NIL I mean the you you can get into tax laws and this that and the other but you know there's more money more and more money being poured into college athletics than there ever has been before so eventually yeah it's going to start trickling down outside of football and basketball you know lacrosse players are going to start getting paid um and and when that does happen yes there is going to be like we've seen with the footballs and the basketballs you're gonna see individuals who are going to eat up roster spots because they're going to make more money. Yep and they have that like you said and they have that fixed extra year to do it. So yeah you're and the you know the the flip side of that coin is like you mentioned there's just not going to be space for incoming freshmen but as division two grows and as as Benny and um you know all Connor and all these guys are helping Division II grow and the you know these young lacrosse players are seeing the opportunity to be a professional lacrosse player even though I went to a Division II school they're gonna start looking because they have no other choice. Yeah you know yeah the you know the the millens are always gonna go D1 the small uh smellinas are always gonna go D1 right yep yep but the 30th man of that recruiting there you go the 91 boys they're all gonna go D1 right yep yep yep but the 30th man on the roster are a part of that recruiting class they're they might not be getting a look because of the roster cap because they're you know these teams would rather bring in you know someone you know who's already played at an extremely high level right you know so yeah there there's going to be trickle down and D2 absolutely absolutely is going to flourish from this as long as you believe that D2 isn't real which we all know yeah it's real it's real D2 is real I also every day out here on the Lee's McRae practice field these boys can play.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

That's right they can sure can and I've also heard uh what was I gonna say I forgot my train of thought now um well I was gonna add in Danny that I'm kind of like you I'm very old school and the thing that I start to love about D2 more and more and it's certainly there with D3 is they are student athletes they are not chasing the dollar because they can't right now and they probably won't ever in D2 may at very smaller amounts it's not going to make a living for them to chase it around they are doing it number one to play their student athletes because they want to find a place to play college sports in our case college lacrosse but two they want to get that education I I truly believe that you know my alma mater is a D D1 school but it's not at any level where you're gonna be chasing the dollars and you're gonna be in there and those are student athletes as well but the beauty of division two is that that's what I truly feel and that's what I love about D2 even more is that model is what I grew up with as a kid and going to college and I'm just old school. You know I get very frustrated watching a football game and hearing like one of the players having transferred three times sometimes it's for good reasons but it's a few years old. Right. And you know so I I just it gets very frustrating that it's it's chasing the next big thing or they didn't get playing time so they're chasing it to to get playing time. I get some of that and we Danny and I even talked about this there are certainly those examples and there will be in D2 where you know you go to a school you think it's gonna be a good fit you know when you're getting recruited it's like being on your first date everyone's on their best behavior the coaches want you you want to look good blah blah blah blah blah and sometimes it really isn't a good fit and you do need to to transfer I think this rule in and of itself helps that from it being transfer and transfer and transfer. You've got to find your fit and you and you go from there because you only get five five chances instead of like transferring oh I only played one game so now I'm gonna I'm gonna get a waiver and I'm gonna go to the third school I think that is uh one of the benefits of the model.

SPEAKER_05 49:02

How about the kids that are on teams that aren't maybe not getting run freshmen and then the coach is like hey man I got seven guys from the portal coming in I don't have as much money guys I don't have an you guys got to find somewhere else to go now. They're asking players to leave you know it's been done guys there's no more money for you here. You know we're going in a different direction you may you can stay in school here there's no more spot for you on the lacrosse team you know you may want to go into the portal if you still want to play lacrosse that's going on now because of this as well. You got guys on rosters already that are being asked to to find somewhere else to go. That's part of this game now too a little bit because they got to keep those especially D1 they got to keep those roster caps. You know they got some guys that maybe just were on the roster just filling in spots and now they don't need those guys and they're being asked to find somewhere else to go. So that's part of what's going on now too but I think in the end like Brad said I think it will they'll see the light at the end of the tunnel and they'll figure it all out and and uh everything will be back to kind of sort of normal again soon hopefully well well and I do want to you know I want to stress like you just said Kevin you know the beauty of division two is the student athlete balance.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Okay I want to stress this rule does not change anything else but the number of years and when you can start playing we still have you know the the hour restrictions in season we still have the days off requirements everything that makes B2 special you know allowing these young men and young women to grow both athletically academically and socially is still in place right now you just get the added benefit of doing it for five years if you choose to that's a great way I think to just cap off this episode because it talks to the strengths of D2 and how even this I think this new rule can benefit student athletes going to D2 if as much if not more than in other situations.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Especially when you look about at the balance.

SPEAKER_05 51:30

So I think it's gonna benefit division two greatly yeah I think you're gonna see a lot more division one type players because of those caps because of the money and because everything else involved you're gonna see them come down to division two and and the top notch division three schools as well.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Yeah yeah so coach once again thank you so much for taking the time to sit with these two knuckleheads and discuss the rule uh we always enjoy having you on we still haven't gotten up to banner elk or down to banner elk it's kind of down for me then back up going to the mountains but uh we got to make that happen soon thank you so much for coming on this has been great hey it's my pleasure guys and you know just you know uh last little thing I'll throw out there is if you have any questions you know I obviously I'll offer myself up because I want I want to help educate you know so if you can look me up online shoot me an email or if you're talking with an institution or there's an institution that you're interested in feel free to reach out to them reach out to their compliance directors.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Honestly the sooner we can kind of get our hands on you and educate you and get you prepared the easier it makes our job. So if you have any questions feel free. Feel free to fire them my way and I'll I'll get back to you just as quick as I possibly can that's great.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

That's

Shout outs

SPEAKER_04 52:53

awesome. So what do you say Danny? That's about a wrap here for this episode you got any music for us to end? I got some music to take out do we have any shout outs tonight?

SPEAKER_05 53:02

I did not before we leave I just shout out to Bradley Dunn for being such a great guest again that's my shout out shout out to Bradley Dunn absolutely 100% he always gives us quality information and we every time we say quality that bell goes quality bell goes off again that's right Coach Boyle's gonna be drinking a shot right now we really appreciate you coming on Brad you you're such a great friend of the program and we're gonna have you on again and we're gonna take it out with some more more music boys here we go some old school 70s funk which way is up I think we know which way is up now I think we're getting there yeah that's a wrap