DII Legends: the two men that solidified the resurgence of NCAA DII lacrosse

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of In the Crease with Danny and Kevin, a coast-to-coast discussion of D2 Men's Lacrosse. I'm your co-host, Kevin Stensorman, and with me, as always, is that burgeoning D2 lacrosse scholar, Danny Moran. Hey Danny, how you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I'm doing great, Kevin. Thank you so much for that wonderful intro. Uh how's it going in Northern Virginia tonight?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

It's it's going well. You know, I I started with that because, as you have said many times, we learned so much on this podcast. And I think one of the things, yeah, one of the things we learned is that there have been some great coaches like Jack Cayley and Tom Postel that really probably planted the D2 lacrosse flag. And you and I really knew nothing about them until we talked to our guests.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Well, yeah, it was Coach Ryan uh actually who brought up uh Coach Cayley to us when Coach Ryan came on with us earlier in the year on the podcast, and he spoke about hey, maybe you guys should do something about Jack Cayley. And you know what, Kevin, living on Long Island and and with three boys in Division II lacrosse, I had never heard of Jack Cayley. I didn't know who the heck he was. So then, you know, we got our that very high-paid crack research team of ours together and uh did a little homework. And I was like, wow, this man was really special man, and and he's really touched a lot of different coaches and a lot of different players in a lot of different ways. And um, we thought it was a really good idea to do a podcast and uh let's talk about you know very special men and Jack Cayley and also uh Tom Postel.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Right. It I I think this is a really special, special episode because we get to do just that. We get to kind of dive in, especially as we're heading into the 2022 season. I think it's really important to kind of talk about and understand the impact of cop contributions that these two coaches really had in the D2 world.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Well, you know what? Tonight we have a distinguished panel of guests that can help our listeners uh and and and people in the D2 world know a little bit more about these two special men. And uh again, like when I did my research, I I had no idea who these guys were. And the more research and the more reading I did about them, I I was just amazed at at what these men can do. And and tonight's panel is a distinguished panel, Kevin. And uh we couldn't ask for a better bunch of guests to talk about both uh Jack Haley and Tom Postel tonight.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, so why don't we just uh uh introduce them right now? So let's let's get that started. First, I'd like to introduce uh coach John Jez, who not only coached under but also took over the program from Tom Postel. So welcome, coach.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Thank you. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

We also have uh from Pace University Tom Mariano. He's obviously the current head coach there, but before his coaching career, he played for Tom Postel. So hey coach, how are you doing tonight?

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Good, good. Thanks for having me on. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

And then uh we have two coaches with us who got to coach against both of these coaches. First, Coach Tim Boyer from Wingate, actually, it was when he was at Dowling, and he got to compete against both of these from about 2001 to 2009. And I think, Coach, you were also in the same conference with both of them. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 3:41

Uh yes, in the same conference uh from the time I I started head coaching till uh their retirement. Uh I'm not sure I'm I'm just part of the distinguished uh panel here, but um I'm happy to be here. I'm not sure I'm a very distinguished man, but you know, thanks for that.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

But well, I'll tell you, we appreciate you guys coming on, as we've always said. They could uh, you know, Danny and I love to hear ourselves talk and we could drone on about all their accomplishments between the two of them, but it's much better to hear from you guys. And then finally, Coach Chris Ryan from Mercyhurst, who also was able to coach against both of these gentlemen. Hey coach, how are you doing tonight?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Oh, we lost your lost her audio. I'm back. Who let the rookie on this thing?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

It's a tough, it's a tough night. Well, thanks for coming on, Coach. So I'll just get this started right with the questions, and uh I'll ask you, Coach Jez. You know, it was really Coach Boyle that kind of asked us if we could add uh Tom Postel to this list, but I'm curious from your perspective, as not only coaching under him, but taking over his program, besides us just asking to be on, why do you think it's important to kind of talk about him tonight?

SPEAKER_04 4:56

I just think he was one of the the godfathers of the first the rebirth of uh Division II Lacrosse when it started to come back in the NCAAs. That group of uh Coach Postel, Jack Kelly, they start to rebuild it and solidify it so it would stay here for the longevity as we've carried over for now. And again, just two great men that you know really really knew their players and really were were important in the growth of uh Division II and the sustaining of Division II.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, that's interesting. And and Coach Boyle, what about Jack Cayley? Why do you think it's important to add him in tonight also?

SPEAKER_05 5:33

Well, you know, when I when I came into coaching, uh I was a Division III guy as a player, and then I went to work in Manhattan, and then I decided I wanted to become a coach. I knew nothing about Division II, and I just basically walked into the athletic department at Dowling and said, hey, you guys need a coach? And they actually did. So I started there as an assistant. And that first season, playing both New York Tech and Post, I recall the scores were about 27 to 3. And I think that went on for several years. And these guys were just like like everybody said, they were just larger than life. I mean, just watching what Jack did with his team and how he commanded them was just beyond what I was capable of at that time. And I had no idea that there was such good lacrosse at that at that level. And and it was such an eye-opener to me. And it actually was uh amazing to just see both of those men work uh, you know, on a daily basis. And then actually to get a chance to compete against them was was uh a real treat, you know, for me as a coach. Probably, you know, having to get getting a chance to compete against those guys and Coach Ryan and Coach Mariano and Coach Jez, those those are some of the fondest memories I've had, you know, as a coach. So uh yeah, and but those two guys were they were cards, they were quick with the wit. Um, you know, they did not hold back. Uh, I remember my first ECT all-conference meeting, and I was sent there uh first year, had no idea what to expect. And Tom said very clearly to me, hey Boyle, if we need something from you, we'll ask you, if not just be quiet in the corner. And I was like, You you got it. I'll just sit over here and be quiet, you know. Uh, so it was it was interesting to grow up as a because that's what I did. I grew up as a coach around those guys. It was it was incredible.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

That's awesome. That's amazing. So uh Coach Mariano, I'm just curious, was uh postel the same way? How was it different having him coaching you as a player than seeing him as a coach and and working in that field?

SPEAKER_06 7:34

Well, I don't think he was any different. I think he was very witty. You know, I it's interest perspective, you know. I coached division two, then division one, and back to division two. And I remember, you know, so many of us we'd go to this coach game, I think division one meetings, and the first thing we would ask guys is like, how was the D T two meeting? How was the you know, Postel, Cayley, Capados? Because they were legendary for the things that they said, and I mean they would God help you. If you stepped out of line, they would kill you in that meeting. And you know, I still go into meetings now when we do all conference all American, and all I could hear and all everybody here will laugh because they've heard it. You know, Coach Postel is saying if you want more play, if you want guys to make all American, get better players. Every meeting I go into now, I think of Coach Postel saying that. And, you know, just you know, two tremendous people, I think probably don't get enough credit for the things. I mean, they clearly get credit, Hall of Fame and all this stuff, but clearly, like just larger than life personalities could take over a room. You know, both Gaylee and Postel, and you know I to this day couldn't tell you if they were enemies, if they hated each other, if they were best friends. I think they were all that. But they, you know you know, like a dynamic duo, and then you throw in Coach Capados from Adelphi. It was like the dynamic trio. It was a triple threat. They were they were a lot to handle, but they did so much. I mean you know, Chris and Timmy would know better than me because I do not remember that far back. But you know, it was very few division two teams playing, and they stood up and they they championed this big time. And, you know, I think they would be you know, you know, they thankfully they got to see a lot of the numbers and the the growth of the division two, but they you know, they was clearly a big part of getting to this point.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, that kind of leads me to uh my next question, and I'll ask it to Coach Ryan. If uh if these two uh did not coach in D2, how do you think the D2 landscape would have changed? And you know, would it look different today or it'd be the same, or would it be behind? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 9:47

It would be behind. Um, I think all the guys on the call right now could tell you that there are aspects to the old New York tech teams, the old post teams, um that we use today. So they I think I think a couple of things I I think one, they influenced all of our teams. I think even more they influence they influenced the growth of our teams. Um, you know, though that was the bar. I mean, I remember the first time I ever coached against Jack, um, I think we lost 19 to 5. I mean, he wasn't Jack wasn't fond of calling the dogs off at all. And you know, going back to what John said about go get better players from Coach Postell, you know, that was it. I remember I went I went into the locker room after the game. I thanked my upperclassman for playing so hard. And then I told the underclassman, I thanked the seniors, and then I told the underclassman, I go, hey, next time we come back here, we're gonna beat these guys. And that was because I knew that that was where the program had to go. And I think when you look at the development at Merciers, Timmy's dowling teams, Coach C and his teams up at up at Le Moine, um limestone, like all of us uh said that's where we need to be, that's who we need to be. And that's because that bar was set by Jack, by Tommy, um, and and I think a lot of obviously the growth, but also I think you can credit them with again the development of some of the the you know the teams that are perennially at the top of Division II. We all had to beat those guys, and we had to get better, and they caused us to become better coaches and better programs. So I I think the the I don't want to say shadow, um, I think the influence of these two guys within the division two ranks, um it you you can't calculate it. There's no way that there's there's no way to put a to put a price on it.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

I guess I'd ask you, Coach Jazz, one article I read about Tom Postel that said they broke the mold with him and he was a truly iconic character. So why do you think he said that? What what did you see? How how was he such a character? Coach Mariano just kind of uh touched upon that a little bit. What what do you think made him such a character?

SPEAKER_04 12:14

He he just told you how it was. He didn't sugarcoat it. If you didn't do something right, he told you you didn't do it right, but in a in a in a great way. He just took no crap from anyone, no matter who it was, you know, from smoking cigarettes on the sideline and not caring about it to laying into kids when he had to lay into kids and just letting people know the way it was. He knew everything from the world team to the top club, coaching division one, like I said, was iconic in division two, but just told people how it was and but but with love to his players and everything else.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Now, Coach Ches, let me ask you a question. You took over the program um from Coach Postel. What did you take from him and bring to your teams?

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Just he was the type of guy that really didn't like the whole press pros practice aspect of stuff. He wanted to send the guys out there and letting them play, but he can figure out something in a game and call a timeout and two seconds later put something in and change something on the fly. Like no other thing I saw. He saw things in the game that you couldn't notice, but he saw it and made the adjustments, and they were so quick to be done that that that it was amazing. And he let the guys play. He got good players, let them play, and you know, and then put the guidance in when he needed, but he let the guys play lacrosse.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

So Coach Mariano, you kind of you pointed to it when you said you didn't know if if Jack Cayley and and Tom Postel were friends, or they were, you know, or they were enemies or whatever. I'm just curious because I went back and looked at the I went back and looked at the records and you know, looked at how many times they played each other and going back and forth. They, you know, one team would win one year and then the next team would win the next year. What were those matchups like back when they coached against each other?

SPEAKER_06 14:01

I think, you know, clearly they were good friends, but I just think, you know, they recruited the same kids. You know, they you know, they kind of always felt, and I think Chris alluded to this, you know, there was a point where you know they both knew everything was running to them to win a championship and to be successful. So, you know, and they were, you know, two different styles, both player coaches, you know. Postel is gonna let you kind of like John said, he's gonna let you play in freelance, and you know, kids love playing hard for him because he kind of let you play. You didn't necessarily practice hard. You know, sometimes you didn't practice at all. You know, John will test this. You know, if it rained out, you know, we you didn't practice. You would go home. Uh guys on the team like, Coach, we play, you know, you know, Maryland is number one in the country. Uh no, we'll be good. You know, because he knew on the fly, and then you know, Coach Cayley is you know, his guys are still running sprints.

unknown 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:58

But I just think that, you know, it it was you know, more structured.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

He was more structured, in other words, Jack.

SPEAKER_06 15:05

Oh yeah, very much so. But I I just think that they, you know, they they compete, and we've all coached against them, and you know, those games they, you know, typically played kind of middle of the season and a lot of times played the end of the season with a lot at stake. And I just think that as we all know, the the more chips in the pile, the more intense it gets, and those guys, you know, probably would have liked to have taken a swing at each other, but they obviously dear friends. But I just think that it was so competitive and they certainly recruited the similar kids that it you know it had to have just added tenfold the intensity of their their you know their competitions and games.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, I can only imagine for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, so Coach Boyle, you you mentioned it quickly when you said you started off and you were first an assistant, and I and I'll follow up because I know Coach Ryan was the same way, and then you had a coach against them. These two probably when you started as the head coach, I would assume these guys, like you said, they were bigger than life already. So what was it like to coach against them in the in the in those first few years that you had as a head coach?

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Oh, they taught me a lot of humility, that's for sure. Because every every time. I mean, and they also, like Chris alluded to before, I mean, it forced us. I mean, I wanted to become a better coach because I didn't want to go out there and get embarrassed by these guys. Like it felt, it felt like we were blue. I'm not lying, it felt like we lost 27-3 every game. And I know that's a it's a joke, but it just felt that way. And, you know, at Dalling, we started to get a little bit of better players and then some resources from the university, and then fortunate enough to get closer and then to have that first win against both of them. I'll never forget those days because they were the most gracious guys when we finally beat them. Like they really didn't, like you would think they wouldn't be because how fiery they are. Yeah, they were the most gracious guys, and it's unbelievable. And I and I love what you know, what Jonathan said about you know, the rain and him not wanting to practice. I'll never forget we're getting ready to go there to play them one day. And I'm in my office at Dowling and I get a phone call from Tom, and he's like, you know, Tim, you know, it's it's just raining, you know. This game will be spinner suited to be played tomorrow. You know, it's gonna be nice out, and you know, it's gonna be a better day, it'll be better for both teams. And I'm, you know, we're the underdogs and we're just like ready to go. We're just ready, and we know that in the rain and the mud, we may have a chance. Yeah, on the on the track, we're in trouble. On a sleek track, we may have a chance. And I'll never forget that. And yeah, we we ended up changing that game and we ended up going there the next day and and losing by a lot. But uh, that was just the nature of it. But it really was amazing when when you finally did have a chance to beat them, they were super gracious. I mean, unbelievably gracious. And and Tom always reached out to me when Dowling started getting better and we made some NCA runs and and in 2012. I mean, I I heard from him. Uh it was amazing. So gracious to hear from. And I I just loved spending time with both of them. Jack, if if anybody, you know, anybody that's nestling, you know, if you get Jack on a phone call, you're on there for a while. Uh it's gonna take a long time to get off the phone because he's it's just the way Jack talked. It was just, you know, it was he needed to think about what he was gonna say and he was gonna get it out there. But yeah, it was interesting. But then the strangest thing is he would just hang up on you. It's quick as could you know, he'd be in the middle of a thought, and then he's like, okay, bud. Boom, come on.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

It was I gotta break in on this one because I was gonna bring that uh Jack's ability to end the phone call is legendary. So, first of all, I don't know if you guys remember this, but I used to I used to have a pretty good Cayley impersonation. And he would be and what you like. And then all of a sudden he was on the phone, and he would he would be going, he would be talking lacrosse, talking about you know who's playing who and giving you know scouts or whatever else. And and then he he would get all excited and his his voice would get real high. He'd like you know, he'd be like, you know, and then and then all of a sudden he'd just be like, Oh, I gotta go like do something wrong. Uh you know, if you would hear it, you know, like, all right, and then but then you you know you just got to know that that was the part of the character who Jack was. Um, you know, and I think his teams absolutely mirrored his intensity and and his uh competitiveness. But I can tell you, like, you know, Merciers and New York Tech, we had a heated rivalry. It was terrific. Um, some of the some of the best games. I miss those games. Um, but I I remember we were at the US LA banquet one year, and uh I think my wife and I were dating. Karen came with me, and there there wasn't anyone else from Mercyers there, so we're we're we're at the bar afterwards, and there's the New York Tech contingent. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, listen, you know, my my wife's a tough lady, but we're outnumbered here. And uh and we ended up spending the evening with Jack and his wife, and just had a terrific time and got to meet a lot of the a lot of the tech players that year, and a lot of the parents, and and I and toward towards the end, I I I think I did start to develop uh a pretty good rapport with Jack, and I just loved the guy that I met and got to know. Um and and uh he's just one of the true characters of Division II. Um, I mean, he was everything that he did. Uh I I used I I mean I used to sort of watch and just see how he did things and and how he carried himself and and and everything else. Uh I don't know if we're gonna get two personalities like Tom and Jack in Division II again. I but I I hope we do because it was healthy for Division II. And and again, I think their their um influence and uh uh on on the division two, on the two division two landscape to this day is is uh terrific.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

That that was great, coach. I appreciate that. I I guess what I'd go next is if I look at all your all four of you, amongst all of you, you have a total of like four NCAA championships, over 20 NCAA tournament appearances, countless conference championships, and I think you've some of you have already touched on this, but uh do you see those accomplishments sort of as a reflection of either coaching with, you know, being a stu a player of or coaching against both Jack Haley and Tom Postell? Coach Jess?

SPEAKER_04 21:55

Uh without a doubt. I mean, uh Coach Postel taught you how to keep things loose. Coach Kelly showed you that it has to be some structure in what you're doing and some discipline. Just the like all the coaches said, that just uh trying to elevate your coaching to be as good as theirs and your influence on your teams to be as good as theirs and what they accomplished and sustained for a long period of time, it was was was something you try to try to emulate. So you you use those guys as as guidance. I mean, I can remember buying some of Jack Kelly's videos and trying to figure out what the hell he was doing to our teams so we can actually get some advantages on that stuff. And spending so much time with Coach Postel was a blessing to learn so many different things outside of the just the normal stuff of how to develop a team, how to create a culture, how to to deal with certain things. It definitely had an influence on me as a coach and develop myself myself a lot further by by knowing those guys. And the strange thing is that New York Tech and CW Post were you probably could walk from one campus to the other. That's how close they were too.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

And let me ask uh all the coaches, any coach that wants to uh chime in on this. Uh Coach Cayley, you know, wrote wrote a couple of books and did some videos. What were the innovative X's and O's that uh Coach Cayley brought to the game? Anybody?

SPEAKER_06 23:23

Zone defense.

SPEAKER_05 23:24

Well, the yeah, the bat the backer zone was just it was it was so hard to play against. And and and and for years, I mean, I just remember hours and hours and hours and hours, myself and my assistant from 2001 until 2005, uh trying to figure out how we're gonna break that and break it on a regular basis so we can score enough goals to ever beat that. And it took forever for us to figure that out. And, you know, it was it it it without a doubt made us all better coaches. I don't think I'd be as an intense person as I am right now if it wasn't for those two guys. I wasn't very intense before I became the head coach. I was kind of laid back. But just watching those two guys, how fiery Coach Postel was on game day, how fiery Coach Cayley was all the time, uh, I just thought it it really modeled what I wanted to do and how I wanted to start coaching and and how I wanted to build a program. And I still, I mean, I think it got to a point where we didn't break the backer zone because we were good. I think we just got a little closer talent-wise to him, and that's why we were able to do it. But for years and years and years, just trying to break that zone, it was so hard. And even he could pressure people so everywhere. It just felt like they had a seventh guy out there. It just was amazing. And and and I know he also the swarm ground balls was always a big piece of who they were, and you always felt like you couldn't get away from them. Uh, you know, you thought you were guys thought they were picking up ground balls uh in in space, and all of a sudden there were guys around them and you just couldn't get rid of it. Um and another part was uh the Hugo clear with the Hugo ride, which was unbelievable. You felt like guys were all over the field. Like you I always was like, I I think they got to be offsides somewhere here. Someone's gotta be off sides because they're just matching feet everywhere. But those were the three big things to me, and I know those were the three big things that he brought up.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

But um so the Hugo ride was wherever he goes you go, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:23

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. So does that match meeting?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

That he tried to do when you're bringing the bringing the ball back in.

SPEAKER_05 25:30

Uh it was just a match, he just he just he was okay with his attackman going over in ride, so he just matched feet. They were they were one-on-one and they matched feet. If your guy went over, you went, he went over. If your guy stayed back, he stayed back. And then it was it was really hard because as coaches, you're looking for that that that leverage there where you have the two-on-one to get it over, and and it's not there. You know, freaking out. You don't you don't see it anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Coach Mariano, what do you what what do you think?

SPEAKER_06 25:54

Well, I think it was definitely Jack's accent that made the Hugo Hugo so effective because the accent. You know, the other thing, too, that is crazy, the one year, like probably one of his best, I forget year, one of the best teams ever, they had like 23 guys. Wow. You know, and certainly nobody playing back then had the rosters they have nowadays, but I mean, people had rosters in mid-30s, you know, mid-30s would be high. Right. But I mean, his his guys, you know, played the whole game at a reckless abandon. And I just think, you know, unfortunately, if you suffered the wrath of that zone and then you had to hear Kaylee's accent yelling the whole game. It, you know, it it was like Timmy said, it, you know, it was fortress. I mean, it felt like they had 90 guys out there, and they they had talented players and great coaching staffs. But for me, I think both those coaches, it was all attitude. It was all, you know, they got their players to play. You know, two different styles of doing it, but they got their players to play. I mean, you know, I was just looking at uh, you know, and I think John was coaching me at Sacred Heart in my first year in 1997, and I played for Postel and then transferred, and obviously when you transfer, you know, didn't have a great relationship over that, but then we became really close in coaching and actually had a great relationship, but you know, my first game at Sacred Heart was against Post. And I don't I don't know if you remember this, John, but you know, we freaking get there and we didn't have any balls. We forgot the balls. So I had to like Perils of head down, shuffle over to Coach, who by the way is half my size. And you know, Sugar's the equipment manager, and I'm like sugar, and he's like laughing at me, and you know, and he's like, You gotta ask Coach Postel, and I had to shuffle or literally tell between like Coach, you might uh can I have some balls? And he's like, Yeah, I'll give you some balls. So he gives him balls, and we go to the game, and I just look, they beat us 14-5, and they were really good that year. And after the game, he's like, Yeah, you're doing a nice job. And as I'm walking away, he grabs my he's like, just don't forget the fucking balls. Thanks, Coach.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

That's great. Coach Ryan, you want to chime in?

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Well, I sort of sum up what the other guy said, it was the system. It was Jack's system. And it was the first time that I got introduced um early in my coaching career to a team that did specific things very well, and you knew what you were gonna get. 222, you're gonna get that, you're gonna get that Hugo ride, and you're gonna get the backer zone. Um, and then Jack would throw in a good amount of toughness with those blue-collar kids, and that's what you were gonna get every time that you that you that you showed up, and you had to you had to match those levels. It was like figuring if you it was almost like figuring out a puzzle um go going against Jack. You you you had every he brought to bear every part of the game against you. He was you that there was no relief, there was no help coming. You knew that you were gonna have to deal with the deuces, you're gonna have to deal with that ride, you're gonna have to deal with that backer zone, and to do it, you know, you had to be a pretty tough team. Um but I'll tell you this, and I don't know if any of the guys on the call were were any of you guys in at the the one year that when when Timmy, I think you were with me when we we went up to to was it Jack's hotel room at the at the convention, and you heard the two staffs arguing with each other? Were you with me? And we just sat there and like tried to drink all their beer while that while they were arguing with each other. I think Coach. I do recall that loosely I think was it Coach Slop like sleeping on the couch, like he started snoring. Jack and Tom are arguing back and forth, and Tim and I are just you know, the two Irish guys are drinking all the beer that's in the room. So just like um, you know, I think um going back to something Tim said, you know, we were we were both bystanders in that room, sort of going back and forth, watching this interaction go on, but that was our apprenticeship to being head coaches. Right. Like we yeah, that I mean that was us going through the rigors of those guys were putting us through the rigors of becoming head coaches. And I don't think any of us would be enjoying the game of lacrosse and maybe the success that we've had if we hadn't had um those interactions and the tutelage and the motivation supplied by those those coaching greats. Um, I mean, I I will be indebted to those guys, and I and and and I think very highly of those guys to this day, um because we're all here on this call because of what of what they provided to us and and the changes that we had to make because we were going against them.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, so you guys talked about what they did for you kind of on the field stuff, their at their characteristics, their attributes on the field, what they brought to the table for D2. I'm kind of curious on the other side because things I've read for both these gentlemen, both Jack Haley and Tom Postell, was their demeanor and character and care for others. Um, even if you say that Tom Postel was, you know, gave it to you straight, right? Um so I guess I'm curious, and and maybe I'll start with you, Coach Mariana, what would you say was their greatest contribution off the field for both of them?

SPEAKER_06 31:43

Well, I think, you know, a lot of us used to make fun of Jack because I, you know, his recruiting, tremendous recruiter, both of them are good recruiters, two different styles. You know, postel would give a kid a full tuition without ever watching him if he came in. He, you know, that didn't work out well. But we used to make fun of Cayley and called him the Hempstead Turnpike Recruiter because I'm pretty sure he would hit all the bars in the Hempstead Turnpike and find guys who played Division I ten years ago and had one year of eligibility left. And, you know, they would come play. But I think the thing that, you know, and having seen this firsthand with a lot of different people, they gave a lot of young men opportunities who probably wouldn't have gone on to college and certainly wouldn't have made it out of college. And I mean a lot. A lot. There's a lot of guys who played in New York Tech and CW Post under those two men who, you know, are retired lieutenants, NYPD, FY, FDNY, Wall Street, teachers, you know, very successful men who probably, if they hadn't had those two men in their lives, you know, who knows where they would have ended up. But I think to me, that was a lot of their impact. You know, it was a different time. You know, I think now everybody's so stuffy and straight laced in coaching, and there's not a lot of smiles in coaching anymore. You know, when those guys coached, there was a lot of smiling. A lot of, you know, recruiting was different. We worked our tails off of camps and recruiting was different. But I think it was just less stressful. But I just think of the, you know, I could name tons of men who played for those two who I know wouldn't have gone to college without playing lacrosse for those two. And certainly, and also, too, I don't know how those two kept some of those men in college to finish college to play lacrosse. You know, give them the credit and you know, to their staffs and the academic people at those schools who, you know, worked with, but you know, some of the the young men that these guys took in probably didn't belong in college at that point, but they ended up graduating and or having success. And I just think, you know, we're not talking like five people, we're talking hundreds.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Right. Hundreds. Yeah. It's an unbelievable testament. What what would you would you add, could you add to that, Coach Jez?

SPEAKER_04 33:56

I just think like like Coach Mariano said, a lot of people that you wouldn't think would go into college or be gone on to be great husbands, great, great, great fathers, now that are working with use lacrosse, the growth from from from lacrosse, from those guys bringing those people into their universities and and keeping them going has created a an avalanche or a waterfall of people that are still spreading the game. I know Stevie Sembrano that played for Coach Postel a long time ago is still preaching lacrosse. I know a lot of players that have have been around him, been around Kelly and Postel are now running youth leagues and creating another another generation of coaches and just spreading the word and and just the hard work and discipline that both those guys taught, and then just the love of the game that both those guys taught those people as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

So basically, what I'm getting from this is basically without these two guys, there might not be a division two.

SPEAKER_04 34:55

It probably would have changed.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

That's a good point. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

D two might have been a lot different without these two men, you know, and just planting that stake and and setting the bar so high and and getting coaches like yourselves to aspire to be that. I mean, and now look where D2 is. We're at how many teams now? 72, 73?

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah, we got nothing. So you know, I think um I can I can remember when I got into this, I think there were 29 teams. I I remember when I was the assistant coach, there there was uh a USILA convention where we were concerned that the NCA was going to pull the sponsorship for D2. Um, and I think I think what what Coach Postel and what Coach Cailey did at a critical juncture in time for the for really established re-establishing Division II is they both married themselves to Division II. They hunkered down, they stayed, they had pride in it, um, they gave longevity to their programs, um, they were loyal to Division II, to their schools, to their programs. It really served, I think, as a um, you know, as a as a how-to, as an example to all of us, um, that that division two is gonna grow and division two is was getting better and more competitive. And you know, look at what look at what's happened today. Every everything that they started has grown even more.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

And then there's sheer dominance back then. And I mean, you can add a Delphi into this. I mean, they used to call it the Long Island Championship. They didn't call it the national championship, they called it the Long Island Championship in those mid-90s there. And I think that sheer dominance forced the NCA to take a step back and say, well, maybe we have to look at regionalization here so we can grow this game. And look what happened with limestone. You, you, they would we want to go north-south region, and all of a sudden, boom, limestone becomes a powerhouse, just like, you know, and and that doesn't happen unless they're looking at this and saying, well, it's always tech post or a Delphi Tech or those schools are just always in it. And that sheer dominance forced them to say, we've got to do something here. And that helped it grow. Because then some universities and colleges took a look at it and said, All right, well, we're gonna get a shot here and we're gonna grow a program. We're gonna start it. And and then, like they said, 29 teams, like Chris said, and now look how high it is now, and teams growing from all over. Would we just add another one from the St. Louis area that's coming in? I mean, it's insane to think of that. And you know, to talk about what Coach Brayman was talking about, he called it the Hempstead Turppike Recruiting. We used to call it the Kennyac Park recruiting because Kennyak Park was the greatest summer league in the country at the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 37:51

That's where Jack would go and he would find these guys. And to be honest, you know, having recruited against him all those years, I know all the guys that he coached. And you're absolutely right when you say that some of those guys probably wouldn't have gone to college and they wouldn't be where they were. They wouldn't be in law enforcement, they wouldn't be in teaching, they wouldn't be retiring right now in their 40s with families and a house and and successful. Who knows where they would have been if not for these two guys? And when I moved down here, started going to these southern tournaments. I went to one in Georgia during the time where we weren't allowed to recruit. I went as a coach of a club team and I made sure I wasn't going to wear my wingate stuff because I didn't want anybody to think I was recruiting because I was coaching a team. And I wore my dabbling shirt, and two guys that were coaching a Georgia club started it on their own, or tech grads, ran right up to me in their best long-accents. Yo, you know dabbling, huh? You know dabbling. And I remembered both of them from back then, and they were both kind of knuckleheads. And I look at them now, grown successful, teaching, running a program, teaching lacrosse in Georgia to kids. And I say, because of Jack and because of Tom, that happened. And it might not have happened without those two guys.

SPEAKER_06 39:11

That's amazing. I also going along the theme of when they were talking about dropping Division II, whoever was having a conversation, the next thing they said, who's going to tell Cayley and Postel? And I think that's probably why Division II stayed, because everybody was afraid to call those two, because they would have gotten Kaylee would have jumped, slam the phone, and drove to wherever they were, and Postel would have gone right to the phone. So I think that's probably why Division II, like Coach Ryan said, is probably still here because whether it was NCA or Division, whoever was making you know having those conversations at that point, certainly did not want to let those two know, hey, we're gonna not sponsor Division II. So I think you know they definitely just their personalities, you know, certainly I agree with that, kept this thing afloat and kept it moving forward. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah, this has been exactly what I was hoping for to get you guys on. I'll tell you, we were gonna have uh a couple other people on the panel that could not make it tonight, and some of them are exactly what you're talking about. Folks that played for Coach Cayley, um Adam Hopkins and Tim Tuttle, that also were assistants for him that aren't in coaching anymore. They're working in business and they're school administrators. It's and and that is a true legacy. Not only growing the game, and and both of them were did coach for a while, and both of them spread the word of lacrosse, but to even go beyond that into other fields and be successful because what they learned when they played for those coaches was more than just the game of lacrosse, and uh that's one of the things that I think is their legacy as well.

SPEAKER_05 40:46

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Well, this has been a this has been a great, great uh podcast tonight. This might be the best one yet, uh, coaches.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Um yeah, I'll tell you, Danny, I'll tell you, we broke all the podcast rules because you're really not supposed to have more than one guest because it's you know, unless we want to put this on YouTube, which I think none of us want this on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Who says we follow rules? That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

But I'll tell you, this was uh, like I said, is exactly kind of what I was hoping for. It I really want to thank this this panel, Coach Jez, Coach Mariano, Coach Boyle, and Coach Ryan for coming on. It was it was phenomenal, not only to hear the stories, but uh what these two gentlemen have done not only for D2 Lacrosse, but for so many people out there.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Well, you know, Jack Kelly's um he passed away on August 19th and he was 83 years old. His career spanned 50 years. Started in the high school levels here in Long Island, won championships, uh Nassau County Championships, and Long Island championships as a high school coach. He's won four NCAA championships with NYIT at the Division II level. He was inducted to the National Hall of Fame in 2010. He's written several books and videos on lacrosse, and he's influenced some of the best coaches in all of college lacrosse that is that are with us tonight. I mean, that's a pretty special guy.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Not only that, but his win percentage of like 85%, 84.9%, something like that, is still the the the second highest in all D1 and D2, which is just phenomenal. Then you add in someone like Tom Postel, who his he got into the lacrosse hall of fame because of his playing career. You know, he played in the 60s, he was the highest scorer as an attack man in 1963, switched to MIDI, and was the highest scorer in in NCA lacrosse in 1965.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

He was an all-American in two different positions.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah, and then he goes off, he serves in Vietnam, he comes back, he starts coaching in high school, and then he has a he has basically a 20-year run at CW Post as as the as the head coach there with an unbelievable winning record as well as NCA, a lot of NCA finals and one championship. So their their records just stand for themselves, just on themselves. And that's why it was so great to even hear more about the the men themselves.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Absolutely. Um, again, through this podcast of you and I have started, Kevin, I've learned so much about schools, locations, all kinds of things from different coaches. But what I've learned tonight and what I've learned about Jack Haley in the last couple of weeks is just he's a truly remarkable man. And we are in Division II, men's lacrosse, where we are today, because of those guys, and and these distinguished coaches, you know, all have attested to that.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, so I think in closing, I'll I'll just share this. Uh my wife, after our first season doing this podcast, which was a short season, it was like five or six episodes that we just had a lot of fun doing, gave Danny and me a little gift of a shot glass to commemorate not only the episodes that we're the podcast, but also to commemorate one of our favorite sayings, which is a quality lacrosse program. Now, I have not used this shot glass yet. All right. But I want to christen it tonight, and I want to toast these two quality gentlemen of Jack Cayley and Tom Postel. So I've got my my uh my bird. I've got Knobs Creek for you. Okay. So here's to Jack Cayley and Tom Postel, whose legacy is not only what they did for D2 Lacrosse, but I think more importantly, their impact they had on so many people they touched in their lives. So here you go. Cheer. Cheers to those two men.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

Cheers. Amen. Amen. Here, here